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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#501

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

cromka wrote: post #217
akersten wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, age verification is the "we have to do something about this nebulous problem even if the best thing we can think of actually makes everything worse for everyone but it makes us feel better" fallacy, which is equally ridiculous.

No, it's not the same. There are anonymous solutions that solve this problem that are perfectly acceptable. Not perfect for prevention, but a good compromise nonetheless. Like cig/alcohol underage consumption prevention.

There is no such thing as anonymous age verification in practice.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#502

Post by keithnz »

JohnMakin wrote: post #261

We'll try everything, it seems, other than holding parents accountable for what their children consume. In the United States, you can get in trouble if you recklessly leave around or provide alcohol/guns/cigarettes for a minor to start using, yet somehow, the same social responsibility seems thrown out the window for parents and the web. Yes, children are clever - I was one once. If you want to actually protect child…

don't you have to age verify to get alcohol? We don't leave that up to the parents. Feels like you defeated your own argument with your examples.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#503

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

almosthere wrote: post #468

I think this should work like OpenID connect but with just a true/false. PS = pr0n site AV = age verification site (conforming to age-1 spec and certified) PS: Send user to AV with generated token AV: Browser arrives with POST data from PS with generated token AV: AV specific flow to verify age - may capturing images/token in a database. May be instant or take days AV: Confirms age, provides link back to original PS…

That solution still violates user privacy.

A better solution would be a simple "minor" flag that is only included on the devices of minors. No third party verification required for adults.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#504

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

jonstaab wrote: post #110

Why is no one talking about using zero knowledge proofs for solving this? Instead of every platform verifying all its users itself (and storing PII on its own servers), a small number of providers could expose an API which provides proof of verification. I'm not sure if some kind of machine vision algorithm could be used in combination with zero-knowledge technology to prevent even that party from storing original do…

Zero knowledge proofs are only private and anonymous in theory, and require you to blindly trust a third party. In practice the implementation is not anonymous or private.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#505

Post by closeparen »

luxuryballs wrote: post #357
Salgat wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works if I ban my child from having any friends since they all have unlimited mobile access to the internet.

this is the biggest problem, so many parents are head-in-the-sand when it comes to things that can damage a child’s mind like screen time, yet no matter how much you protect them if it’s not a shared effort it all goes out the window, then the kid becomes incentivized to spend more time with friends just for the access, and can develop a sense that maybe mom and dad are just wrong because why aren’t so-and-so’s paren…

Do you believe the research shows that screens in and of themselves are so powerfully damaging that being exposed for, what, a few hours a week at a friend’s house will cause them to require psychiatric medication?

So many questions. Are you campaigning against billboards in your city? Do you avoid taking your kids to any business that has digital signage? I assume you completely abstain from all types of movies and TV? What about radio or books?

What are you, personally, doing on HN?

Fascinating.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#506

Post by iamnothere »

embedding-shape wrote: post #208
iamnothere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there is some organic support, there is a lot of coordinated astroturfing. It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. Governments (and a few companies) really want this.

> It’s apparent if you watch the discussions across platforms, there are obvious shared talking points that come in waves. How do you know what is "shared talking points" vs "humans learning arguments from others" and simply echoing those? Unless you work at one of the social media platforms, isn't it short of impossible to know what exactly you're looking at?

It could be, and you’re right that I can’t prove anything beyond a doubt. But there is an entire industry built around professionally manipulating public opinion for money, and the groups most interested in deanonymizing the internet are well resourced. Simple inductive reasoning will tell you that a portion of the support is likely astroturfed.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#507

Post by unethical_ban »

briffle wrote: post #411
belorn wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bit confused by that comment. Are parents social responsible to prevent companies from selling alcohol/guns/cigarettes to minors? If a company set up shop in a school and sold those things to minors during school breaks, who has the social responsibility to stop that?

when I was a kid in the early 90's, my state (and many others) banned cigarette vending machines since there was no way to prevent them being used by minors, unless they were inside a bar, where minors were already not allowed.

The problem is, doing the analogous action with the entire internet is a privacy nightmare. You didn't have to tell 7-11 every item you bought at every store in the past 2 years and opt-in to telling them what other stores you go to for the next 5.

There is no digital equivalent of "flash an ID card and be done with it" in the surveillance state era of the internet. Using a CC is the closest we have and even then you're giving data away.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#508

Post by evilantnie »

JohnMakin wrote: post #454
Quarrelsome wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is more around it being illegal so as to not be forced into playing "the bad guy". It's hard to prevent a level of entitlement and resentment if those less well parented have full access. If nobody is allowed then there's no parental friction at all. Its unfortunate that the application of this rule is being performed at the software level via ad-hoc age verification as opposed to the device leve…

I'm saying hold parent's accountable for their children's online behavior and for their protection online, not companies (who want to profit off the kids, perverse incentive) or governments (who can barely be trusted to do this even if this was the only goal). For example if your kid starts making revenge CP of their classmates, and the parent could have reasonably mitigated or known about it, I think the parent abso…

If we want parents to be accountable, then these platforms need to provide better tools to enable parents to do so. It is impossible to monitor the entirety of your child's behavior online through any of these platforms today. They are their own person, they make their own choices, and those choices are heavily influenced by a world the parents have increasingly less influence over, especially as they grow older.

On the flip side, I do think we should also hold companies more accountable for this. We collectively prevented companies from advertising tobacco to minors through regulation with a pretty massive success rate. These companies know how harmful social media can be on youth, and there is little to no effective regulation around how children learn about these platforms and get enticed into them.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#509

Post by nephihaha »

estimator7292 wrote: post #319
belorn wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bit confused by that comment. Are parents social responsible to prevent companies from selling alcohol/guns/cigarettes to minors? If a company set up shop in a school and sold those things to minors during school breaks, who has the social responsibility to stop that?

Companies are legally prohibited from marketing and selling certain products like tobacco and alcohol because they historically tried to . Parents are legally and socially expected to keep their kids away from tobacco and alcohol. You're breaking legal and social convention if you allow your kids to access dangerous drugs. Capitalist social media is exactly as dangerous as alcohol and tobacco. Somebody should be held…

"Capitalist social media is exactly as dangerous as alcohol and tobacco. Somebody should be held responsible for that, and the legal and social framework we already have for dealing with people who want to get kids addicted to shit works fairly well."

They work hand in hand with governments around the world, that's why they get the tax breaks. In return they hand over details about your opinions, social networks and whereabouts, not to mention facial recognition data via Facebook. They aren't remotely capitalist in any real sense since they have a bad business model.

Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection

#510

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #103
bondarchuk wrote: post #34

It's kind of weird to me how every article on this topic here has people rushing to comment within a couple minutes with some generic "yes I too support ID checks for internet use!". Has the vibe really shifted so much among tech-literate people?

I don't support ID for internet use, only for adult content specifically. There's things on Discord that would shock you to your core if you saw some of it, I don't think children should be blindly exposed to any of it. Specifically porn. Tumblr almost got kicked out of the app store over porn, they went the route of banning it and killing what to me felt like a dying social media platform as things stood. Do you thi…

Until sex, sexuality, and sexual fantasies no longer have any potential stigma associated with them, any sort of verification to view mature content is unacceptable.

That sort information can permanently destroy peoples lives.

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