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We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

theguardian.com

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Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#501

Post by ted_bunny »

jjav wrote: post #452
jjmarr wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese is too difficult of a language. I have spent 5 years learning it part-time and have gotten to a level I can understand 30% of a TV show and 20% of a newspaper. Unfortunately it's two different languages and both are unlike almost anywhere else. The spoken language is tonal and the consonants don't easily match English. If I have a heavy English accent, I just don't speak Chinese instead of sounding like a for…

> Meanwhile the written language has almost no correlation with the spoken language. So identical to French then!

At least English has a good reason for the wacky spelling, indicating etymology. French is just... so French.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#502

Post by mlrtime »

deaux wrote: post #399
foxglacier wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just compare Chinese immigration enforcement favorably against "ICE stormtroopers"? Foreigners in China have to tell the police where they live, even if it's just a stay in a hotel, and they get deported very quickly for minor crimes. There isn't a problem of illegal immigration in China because the police are so strict, nobody can get away with it!

Seems a lot more humane than allowing such things and then one day sending armed masked men to kidnap people from the street.

The major point being is that China doesn't have sanctuary cities. This wouldn't happen if the cities didn't safe harbor the illegals.

Most replies at this point will shift the goal posts stating 'due process', again keeping on topic, not available in China either.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#503

Post by hunterpayne »

dragonwriter wrote: post #188
inglor_cz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything is about money. The killer app of the US used to be that the US was rich and welcoming to foreigners and politically quite free. China or Saudi Arabia can wave their money around, but at least some people will be repulsed by the obligation to keep their mouths shut and praise the Dear Leader. Their cultural insularity does not help either. You can live in China, but you will never be accepted as Chines…

> The killer app of the US used to be that the US was rich and welcoming to foreigners and politically quite free. Yeah, it used to be the that the US only committed ethnic cleansing against people that were here first , not foreigners, and was so welcoming to foreigners that it would expend resources to have them shipped here as property.

We used to teach a nuanced, honest version of history too. Apparently that doesn't happen anymore.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#504

Post by ted_bunny »

niemandhier wrote: post #410
tsunamifury wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked in with the Chinese now for two years in technical fields. I have a strict requirement that they learn English as it is a more technical and specific language and less prone to the use of metaphorical weasel words that slow progress. I have openly stated that it is a strictly less technical language and often draws teams in to vague specifications and much more verbose language to find specificity. I ha…

Saphire-Worff is dead; but I think language matters more than we usually assume. My favourite example is Arabic, which is both an old and hard to extend language. In Arabic you would have a hard time to express the concept of „a foreigner who is citizen but resides out of state“. Not that we often speak about this concept in English, but the word used to refer to „citizens“ carries the connotation of „nation“ and the…

Can you be more specific about what makes it "hard to extend?"

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#505

Post by hunterpayne »

gizzlon wrote: post #499
oytis wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I am not from the USA, but like many people know a lot more about it than I would like - still might be missing some context because of that. I am not sure how it really works - all these people who now support Trump in achieving their goals - why would they want to support him in staying in power indefinitely? Isn't it clear that when there is no democracy, their opinion doesn't matter anymore? It's still ver…

Me neither, and same! I have no idea, but many keep supporting him through all of the above. So what would make them stop? I hope you're right, but it's not looking good so far :/

Let me put your mind at ease, the version of US politics you think is happening is just a mirage. As in it doesn't exist. Real US politics doesn't take place in the media anymore. Its all just propaganda now. Trump is a terrible statesman, but he is nothing like what is described by the media nor anything you mentioned in any real way nor are current events in any way unique or different from how the US functions normally. Its just that now it seems to be OK to call an ICE facility holding people to be deported (something that exists in almost every country) is now called a concentration camp in the media (and even in this thread). But Obama, Clinton and Bush deported about the same number of people as Trump. So please believe me, as someone who actually lives in the US, you are just watching a scripted reality show from another universe, not actual life in the US.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#506

Post by dennysora »

I’ve heard that, at companies developing AI right now, the core R&D staff are mostly ethnic Chinese. I’m not sure whether that’s accurate.

I’ve also heard that meetings are conducted in English, but that all private discussions happen in Chinese, so managers have no idea what they’re talking about.

That said, Chinese really is hard… In contrast, English is simple enough, so it’s more efficient to learn, and it’s easier to attract talent.

As for whether this “stifles” anything, I think China mainly relies on its own people. Most of the talent who go to China still speak English anyway.

On top of that, China’s speech control is genuinely annoying. Though I also find it annoying that Threads arbitrarily suppresses speech, too.

In areas like energy, semiconductors (Taiwan—although some production/deployment is currently in China, but it’s hard to say what might happen and when), and AI, China does feel unsettlingly powerful right now.

In democratic countries, just getting approval for a new energy facility can turn into years of arguing; in China, they can build several in the same time.

By the way, I’m Taiwanese.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#507

Post by ted_bunny »

michaelt wrote: post #228
michaelteter wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that anyone who lives and works here in the US can be accepted as “American”? Are you also implying that in the US anyone is free to speak negatively of “dear leader”? There are a multitude of current examples to the contrary.

> Are you suggesting that anyone who lives and works here in the US can be accepted as “American”? Whether you're born in Moscow and named Sergey Mikhailovich Brin, or born in Pretoria and named Elon Reeve Musk, or born in Hyderabad and named Satya Narayana Nadella, born in Frankfurt and named Peter Andreas Thiel - America has a place for you. Maybe even your own government department. In America a man can find accep…

(Looking at Elon boat photos) Oh, that's what the founders meant by huddled masses!

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#508

Post by lII1lIlI11ll »

ggregoire wrote: post #219
mr_00ff00 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But related to this article, is China winning in terms of accumulating talent? I don’t think people all over Europe/Asia/Africa migrate to China. If they succeed, it’s purely with their own talent. The US still has that advantage even if it has less of it, unless I am mistaken.

> I don’t think people all over Europe/Asia/Africa migrate to China. Learning mandarin is the major blocker imo, more people would move if the language was easier.

Even if I was fluent in mandarin, China still wouldn't be in my shortlist of countries to move to due to low salaries in engineering, poor working conditions (996), authoritarian government, etc.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#509

Post by exceptione »

entropyneur wrote: post #473
neither_color wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about language. There's no common practical path to becoming "Chinese", either in a legal or cultural sense. Save for a few rare exceptions, you cannot move there, join the culture, become a citizen, etc even if you're fluent. The western systems arent perfect but they allow a greater number of people who really want to assimilate do so regardless of background.

Why would anyone want to become a Chinese citizen? How's everyone discussing linguistics while completely ignoring the authoritarian elephant in the room?

Because we hn people are used to reduce the world to a set of technical parameters. I am not intending to blame or shame anyone here, but to take it more broadly, the discussion around Doge showcased many such problems that arise from unawareness about the limits of our approach: context blindness, taking narratives at face value, narrow focus on technicalities, no consideration for ethics etc.

Tech people need to reduce complexity to make it computable, that's our job. Our strong points are the weak points too. Again: no blame or shame. Just wanted to point out we are susceptible in these matters.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#510

Post by numpad0 »

tsunamifury wrote: post #338
gyomu wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese engineers clearly have no problems building specific, technical things; just like Chinese surgeons have no problems carrying out specific, technical surgeries, etc. So how is the language "strictly less technical and specific"? Can you give specific and technical examples?

Mandarin is a courtly language full of back out vagueness and high context construction. This is simply a product of the society. It’s not a judgement of right or wrong it simply just is. Rote Surgery is not a good example compared to say writing a PRD about an unknown feature. I am in no way saying Chinese people cannot do these things. I am saying in mandarin it is less specific and more circumspect ways of getting…

Say what you want about Sapir-Whorf, but it's just the reality that translation of anything to anything is generally gibberish. It's just a fact. The more literal it gets, the less coherent it will be. A complete word-for-word "translation" is just garbage out.

Was that Chinese text actually being ambiguous, or was that translations you were given being nonsensical/having so much context errors? The latter is kind of an expected behavior for translated technical texts, and that has nothing to do with whether Chinese are illogical bunches(why even bother contacting if that were ever the case...)

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