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Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

eupolicy.social

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Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#501

Post by tavavex »

bubbasugga wrote: post #434
carlosjobim wrote: post #92

"This Mastodon server is a friendly and respectful discussion space for people working in areas related to EU policy." "The Ford Ranger (2020). One of the most popular pickups in the US. A key selling point is that the cabin is so high you can run over toddlers without even noticing." Lovely people as always. Would you like to live neighbours with this person, or share communal facilities with him?

Their cynicism is cope. They are witnessing their own decline every single day. It's honestly so sad. On the other side of the globe there is Tesla [1]. Even if you don't like the idea of cars, this is the pinnacle of a utilitarian product. Also one of the most popular vehicles (globally) as opposed to the (incorrect) example used in the thread. Modern cars are great for the most parts. More comfortable, more safe, m…

Electric cars could have paved the way to practical, utilitarian vehicles through their less-moving-parts, simpler nature. Instead, what we got were IoT gadgets on wheels, and Tesla is a pinnacle of that. It's about as far from a utilitarian product as you can get. Every modern Tesla vehicle is a definition of software-over-hardware and form-over-function. In your hypothetical 30 year apocalypse scenario, no one would be driving a Tesla, because their "utilitarian" Steam Early Access-like self-driving would cease once people can no longer pay the subscription fee for it, their single-point-of-failure screens break with no way to replace them (after all, the utilitarian designers were most concerned with making it look cool rather than lasting a long time), and because the overcomplicated door handles would stop working, as again, it was worth it for how cool they looked. In addition to 1000 other issues, like if they happened to get stuck on a bad software revision that breaks some random feature. "Most fast and break things" for cars, now that's utilitarianism. Tesla's physical build quality is widely known as being some of the worst in the market of luxury new cars. Nothing about them is conducive to longevity. In your apocalypse where there is no road maintenance and no spare parts, we'd be driving either the barebones self-propelled transport (bikes and such), or the absolute simplest cars you can fix yourself, such as... the subject of this thread, for instance. Or really, many similar cars from that era which that thing represents. Modern cars have gotten better in many regards - efficiency or safety-oriented design, for example - but in others, they've gotten so, so much worse. Longevity and repairability is down, what's in is hammering subscription-based, DRMed, badly designed things-as-a-service into every industry, including the automotive industry. That's what people are cynical about.

> They are witnessing their own decline every single day. It's honestly so sad.

What is so sad is being so stuck-up in whatever opinions you have as to think that people cannot genuinely in good faith have opinions other than yours, that everyone must surely know this objective truth you believe and that it's everyone else who's insanely deluding themselves from confronting this reality that you in your wisdom bring to them.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#502

Post by Nextgrid »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #388
Nextgrid wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason technology has to be user-hostile. You can still have an ECU and screens and everything. When it breaks the screen can be used to tell you exactly which sensor input is out of range. There's no reason parts need to be serialized and learning a new part can only be done once. You can build a modern vehicle that's still repairable.

Modules need to be programmed for your vehicle specs and country because there are different laws and functions. For example rear taillights are different in Europe vs the US. Another is that higher trims of my car have a rear climate zone which has a different fan and actuators for air flow that the module needs to know exist.

So the screen can ask for the programming data to be entered or loaded from a USB stick given to you when you buy the vehicle. There’s no reason this can only be done with a proprietary tool you often can’t get legally at all and have to resort to piracy or reverse-engineered aftermarket options. There’s also no reason this can only be done once and then the module is junk.

Hardware differences can be autodetected in some cases.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#503

Post by fastball »

Fischgericht wrote: post #457
seabrookmx wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also unsafe. He's comparing it to a modern Ranger, not the Ranger of the same year as the C15 (which was much smaller and got better fuel economy), and he completely ignores the fact that the Citroen wasn't sold in North America. He seems to imply there would be no appetite for one here but I disagree. In western Canada I see imported Kei trucks everywhere and these fill a similar niche!

Safety is relative. Ranger crashes into C15: Ranger wins, C15 passengers dead. Ranger crashes into human: Ranger wins, human dead. C15 crashes into C15: Tossup. C15 crashes into human: C15 wins, but human is less dead. The whole concept of car upsizing all the time is about that: If you crash into another moving object, you want to be the winner. Understood. Buy a tank.

You can crash into things that aren't other vehicles and don't have people with them, at which point the logic of your trolley problem flies out the window.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#504

Post by aldonius »

SenHeng wrote: post #109
egeozcan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My driving skills are probably below average. I really like that my car warns me of zebra crossings and can follow the car in front of me with a safe distance. Many of the modern car features are just useless marketing fluff, but there is some really good progress too.

I’ve got two cars that I drive regularly, a modern day BMW with all the bells and whistles, and an almost 20 year old Honda Acty Van. It’s 660cc, doesn’t have rear seat belts, or a radio, it does have power windows though. I enjoy driving both for different purposes, but I have to agree with you. On long distance driving (>200km), the BMW is safer. Cruise control, lane keeping, auto distance. It really makes long, mu…

I drive a 20-year-old Civic.

On a trip about 18 months ago I had some Kia soft-roader hire car. I bloody hated the lane keeping (unfamiliar narrow twisty roads are bad enough without the car tugging on the steering wheel).

Conversely the auto-distance thing with cruise control is fantastic - it makes CC usable at way higher traffic densities.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#505

Post by alextingle »

notatoad wrote: post #473
MrGilbert wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modules need to be programmed for your vehicle specs and country because there are different laws and functions. So are different intervalls of oil change between Australia and Europe - and yet, even in the 90s, people were able to keep that in mind. We got taught to be helpless by the industry, so they can help us out. If that mindset would have existed in the 60s, 70s, then there would not be a "true to OEM" afte…

We got taught to be helpless by the industry, so they can help us out. industry is pretty damn good at figuring out what customers actually want, instead of just what customer say they want and then don't actually buy. cars are the way they are because that's what the overwhelming majority of car buyers actually want. The average driver doesn't want their car spitting out error codes, they want a check engine light t…

Are you sure that's what customers want, or maybe it's what dealers want?

The check engine light tells you nothing. It tells your local mechanic nothing. Do you can't get the problem fixed easily or cheaply.

What it does, is force you to take the car to a dealer, who has the specialist, proprietary equipment needed to interpret the fault. And these gatekeepers will charge you a fat premium for that.

So no. I don't think this design choices are driven by a desire to serve the customer.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#507

Post by 4MOAisgoodenuf »

Fiveplus wrote: post #29
KronisLV wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days. I wonder how differently cars would be built, if instead of maximizing for value extraction and crap nobody needs, they instead were optimized for utility and maintenance (and sure, fuel economy, aerodynamics and some sane environmental stuff). Like take the C15 and add 2-4 decades of manufactur…

That would be the absolute dream engineering brief. If I actually sit down and design that vehicle, it would have something like this. List, off the top of my head. 1. You keep the modern metallurgy and the crumple zones. You keep ABS and basic traction control because they are solved problems that save lives without needing cloud connectivity. 2. Instead of a 2000 USD proprietary touchscreen that will be obsolete in…

Please allow me to introduce you to the second gen Toyota Yaris

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#509

Post by notatoad »

alextingle wrote: post #505
notatoad wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got taught to be helpless by the industry, so they can help us out. industry is pretty damn good at figuring out what customers actually want, instead of just what customer say they want and then don't actually buy. cars are the way they are because that's what the overwhelming majority of car buyers actually want. The average driver doesn't want their car spitting out error codes, they want a check engine light t…

Are you sure that's what customers want, or maybe it's what dealers want? The check engine light tells you nothing. It tells your local mechanic nothing. Do you can't get the problem fixed easily or cheaply. What it does, is force you to take the car to a dealer, who has the specialist, proprietary equipment needed to interpret the fault. And these gatekeepers will charge you a fat premium for that. So no. I don't th…

the check engine light tells you there's an OBD code available to be read. you can buy a reader for $20 on amazon, or your local hardware store, or i've even seen them at gas stations. you don't need "specialist proprietary equipment" that "gatekeepers charge a fat premium" for. this isn't magic.

most people take it to a mechanic instead, because that's what they'd rather do.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#510

Post by LeChuck »

aldonius wrote: post #504
SenHeng wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve got two cars that I drive regularly, a modern day BMW with all the bells and whistles, and an almost 20 year old Honda Acty Van. It’s 660cc, doesn’t have rear seat belts, or a radio, it does have power windows though. I enjoy driving both for different purposes, but I have to agree with you. On long distance driving (>200km), the BMW is safer. Cruise control, lane keeping, auto distance. It really makes long, mu…

I drive a 20-year-old Civic. On a trip about 18 months ago I had some Kia soft-roader hire car. I bloody hated the lane keeping (unfamiliar narrow twisty roads are bad enough without the car tugging on the steering wheel). Conversely the auto-distance thing with cruise control is fantastic - it makes CC usable at way higher traffic densities.

Yes, lane keeping can be quite annoying. I regularly drive a road with side markings but no center marking. The car interprets this as a single lane and constantly tugs my steering wheel into oncoming traffic.
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