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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#501
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

The thing I don't get about the framework upgradability is that, what are you honestly going to do with the old system board or graphics card? I guess you could sell it. Who's going to really buy it? I tend to upgrade my laptop every 6-8 years and by then there is nothing to upgrade well, frankly the technology has moved on, new PCIe standards DDR screen tech etc. One of the reasons I did not buy a framework (was ver…

Drop it into this case to be used as a home server or a set top box!

https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pricing when I looked was similar. I went with a Lenovo last time because the Framework 16 hadn't quite matured, but premium anything is never going to make financial sense. Buying and repairing a framework is never going to be cheaper than going through consumable trash laptops, and buying top of the line laptops and trying to use them longer is never going to be cheaper or better than buying medium grade laptop…

> buying top of the line laptops and trying to use them longer is never going to be cheaper or better than buying medium grade laptops and upgrading more often. I think this is much less general than you make it out to be and has an extremely strong dependency on how you use the thing and of your preference. It makes me think of the boot theory. Personally, for the type of work I do, I rarely need the latest ludicrou…

> I think this is much less general than you make it out to be and has an extremely strong dependency on how you use the thing and of your preference. It makes me think of the boot theory.

The boot theory is different: It is about buying something not crafted with proper materials which will quickly fall apart and cost more in the long run. However, unlike technology, there is no cowhide 2.0 coming out 6 months after, with all leather made the cowhide 1.0 way instantly dropping in value and fading into irrelevancy.

Low-end laptops tend to be build around older SKU's which are no longer of interest but function no worse than they did when launched, and mid-tier laptops tend to be made with current SKU's in the more reasonable binning categories.

At the same time, the replacement rate also means that whatever high-end laptop will soon have its rear handed to it by a mid-tier machine of the next chip generation. While it's outdated within a year or two you of course won't replace it that soon, but that upgrade might stretch your upgrade schedule 50% to justify it - from, say, 4 years to 6. More years of being generations behind.

Keeping a Framework around for longer also only makes sense when considering upgradability.

> A case in point: at work we have HP Elitebooks. The brand-new 2025 models I see people receive have worse screens and trackpads than my 2013 MBP

HP Elitebooks are expensive, high-end machines. The issues you see is because HP, Dell and Lenovo all cater to IT department buying strategies, and therefore all offer a bargain screen option as the machines are bought in bulk and mostly used docked. You'll find that they also have an mid-tier screen option (usually a color-accurate 1080p or 1440p panel), as well as a high-end option (say, 4k OLED touchscreen with wacom digitizer).

The trackpad is a different story entirely. If you're used to a Mac trackpad, things are a bit grim on the PC side. There's some nice ones coming out though.

> They also degrade from daily use: the screen hinge loosens so it moves if you look at it wrong

Everything degrades from daily use. My hinge loosened on my last Mac, the screen damaged itself because the 15" panel did not have the necessary rigidity to main the intended 0.5mm gap to the keyboard keys (confirmed as the second panel did the same), the shitty magsafe port overheated as using pogopins for high power transfer is a terrible idea, all I/O on one side died, and the battery had inflated at least once...

My Dell XPS 13 costing 1/3rd never had any problems, and when replaced it just felt a bit slow and had a somewhat aged battery.

Price is not an indicator of quality or expected reliability, nor is the brand itself a reliable indicator. Use common sense, take a look at the product and avoid the bottom of the bargain bin.

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Do get a good mouse and keyboard though, it has a much more direct impact on your user experience and a mouse that costs twice as much isn't as much of an issue as a laptop costing twice as much. The keyboard and mouse also lasts longer if kept well.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nice! didn't know about that. Thanks!

Someone was upset about it. The comment was down voted? Try to be helpful.

Maybe they're upset you're not using Wayland?

Then again, every Wayland compositor family has their own tools...

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily just outdoors, but to any well lit environment.

Including indoors in rooms with large windows that face east, south, or west! This describes a lot of office buildings, as well as my bedroom in a circa-2005 cheaply built mass development home too. On sunny days, it’s brightly naturally lit for basically half the day, and dim displays can struggle in that environment.

Not to mention cafes, libraries, or other large buildings which are many times constructed to let in as much sunlight as possible.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#506
I don't find framework appealing for upgradability, but I do think it's great for repairability. Being able to extend the life of a machine easily by replacing a cracked screen or degraded battery is so much better than going to the fruit store and being upsold a new machine and spending more. Obviously you pay extra in upfront costs and sacrifice build quality for a framework.

Also I think framework will excel in the SMB market where companies may have diverse requirements for different employees. Some just need a machine for email/browser and others for dev or video editing. But they can share parts, and upgrading a dev machine might have the benefit of upgrading other employees machines with the extra parts.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#507
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity - which laptop did you buy then? If "one of the open source projects supported by this company has lead who says controversial things on Twitter" is too much, I'm afraid you may have troubles finding one.

A Framework 13. I haven't replaced it yet. And you missed the point. I believed in the "mission" of Framework. That was my primary motivation to buy one. But their stance here is not compatible with that. So I may as well buy a product that has more practical upsides for me. You know, when I actually have to replace my 7840U. Probably not anytime soon.

Honestly I don't think I did. I think I understand you. I would like to buy "perfect" product for me. But I'm small niche. There won't be one.

I don't think we should cancel people that want to do something good over a few mistakes, while Microsoft gets to be openly hostile to users, Google does developer verification bullshit and Apple does blatant corruption right in the oval office. Don't even get me started on Zuck running servers on your personal hardware to get around private mode.

I may or may not agree with DHH views, but all that is just one guy's opinion which really doesn't matter that much, against one of the few companies that did something good with hardware in recent years.

Keep everyone to the same standard.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can move the word "almost" to make more sense: it's only almost a market even if everyone in it is rabid about those features. It's not a substantial share of the overall laptop market because, quoting from above… people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience ... will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at…

I think there is a revealed preference that most people don't focus much on repairability, but I don't think it's at odds with a good form factor.

I am not focused on doing it myself. The most that I care about doing myself is buying a new charging cable if somehow I damage the one the laptop comes with.

And I have this feeling most people are kind of the same page as me.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#509
post #113
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

Enterprises that buy ThinkPads do care about maintainability and Lenovo does provide parts and detailed instructions to repair almost every aspect of their machines.

They most likely have contracts with them Lenovo and were former users of IBM.

I haven’t heard of any big company tyat repairs their own hardware in about 20 or so years.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#510
post #463
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about macbooks is: - dead silence - unbelievably good battery life - tank sturdiness - great performance - amazing screen - amazing speakers - god-tier trackpad - repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it — It is basically uncontested in a laptop space. I would only consider windows / linux on a desktop pc

> repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it I'm sorry but that is just false. Various organisations assessing repairability consistently give MacBooks poor scores for having soldered components, glue everywhere and complicated assembly. Meanwhile I have one screwdriver for my Framework, which came with the laptop and I can use it to replace any part, including thos…

That’s why I specifically told what I meant: it is not about being able to swap SSD, but that for at least 5-7 years you will be able to repair it (expensively).

Moreover in basically every corner of the earth there will be either authorised service or local one that will help you if soak your laptop in thailand or what have you.

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