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Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

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Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#501

Post by wvenable »

happymellon wrote: post #422
wvenable wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been posting recently how I refactored a few different code bases with the help of AI. Faster code, higher quality code, overall smaller. AI is not a hammer, it's a Lathe: incredibly powerful but only if you understand exactly what you're doing otherwise it will happily make a big mess.

> Faster code, higher quality code, overall smaller. I'll have to take your word for it, I have yet to see a PR that used AI that wasn't slop. > AI is not a hammer, it's a Lathe I would liken it more to dynamite.

> I'll have to take your word for it, I have yet to see a PR that used AI that wasn't slop.

How would you know a non-slop PR didn't use AI?

Why would I accept slop out of the AI? I don't. So I don't have any.

I don't understand the disconnect here. Some people really want to be extremely negative about this pretty amazing technology while the rest of us have just incorporated it into our workflow.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#502

Post by happymellon »

wvenable wrote: post #501
happymellon wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Faster code, higher quality code, overall smaller. I'll have to take your word for it, I have yet to see a PR that used AI that wasn't slop. > AI is not a hammer, it's a Lathe I would liken it more to dynamite.

> I'll have to take your word for it, I have yet to see a PR that used AI that wasn't slop. How would you know a non-slop PR didn't use AI? Why would I accept slop out of the AI? I don't. So I don't have any. I don't understand the disconnect here. Some people really want to be extremely negative about this pretty amazing technology while the rest of us have just incorporated it into our workflow.

> How would you know a non-slop PR didn't use AI?

I don't, hence why I have to take your word for it.

The PRs that people have submitted where they either told me up front or admitted to using AI after the review probed as to why they would be inconsistent in their library usage were not good and required substantial rework.

Yes, some people may submit PRs that used AI and were good. But if so, they haven't told me but I would have hoped that people advocating it would have either told me or got me to review, said it is good, and then told me it was a test and the AI passed. So far that hasn't happened, so I'm not convinced it's a regular occurrence.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#503

Post by matteocontrini »

forephought4 wrote: post #420
tliltocatl wrote: post #355

I think people screaming "but AI is the future" doesn't recognize what the problem is. The problem is not AI. The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those. Stop pushing bells and whistles. Give us more extensibility instead. Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more. Ther…

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Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#504

Post by wvenable »

happymellon wrote: post #502
wvenable wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll have to take your word for it, I have yet to see a PR that used AI that wasn't slop. How would you know a non-slop PR didn't use AI? Why would I accept slop out of the AI? I don't. So I don't have any. I don't understand the disconnect here. Some people really want to be extremely negative about this pretty amazing technology while the rest of us have just incorporated it into our workflow.

> How would you know a non-slop PR didn't use AI? I don't, hence why I have to take your word for it. The PRs that people have submitted where they either told me up front or admitted to using AI after the review probed as to why they would be inconsistent in their library usage were not good and required substantial rework. Yes, some people may submit PRs that used AI and were good. But if so, they haven't told me b…

Maybe the problem with understanding the benefits of AI is that you are relying on other people to use AI properly. As the direct user myself, I don't have that problem.

I'm using it to make things better rather than just producing. Even just putting it in agent mode and saying "look at all my code and tell me where I can make it better" is an interesting exercise. Some suggestions I take, some I don't.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#505

Post by immibis »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #417
tliltocatl wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Didn't they say they will continue with Manifest v2? Yes and that's a good thing > Wasn't NPAPI mostly replaced with HTML5? It's true that what NPAPI was used for 99% of the time is better served by HTML5. But it's not like NPAPI was limited to Flash and applets. Afair NPAPI plugins can access all native resources (which is the reason why the security sucked so much), HTML5 obviously can't. E. g. runtime code gener…

> Then there are stuff like WebUSB/WebNFC/WebSerial that Mozilla killed. Ah, true, Chrome has it, but Firefox not. Coincidental, some weeks ago I had to use this, worked well, and is another reason to always have an alternative browser around. Yes, Mozilla should work to at least fix that stuff.

It's stuff that obviously should not be in the web, that is Google EEEing the web...

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#506

Post by tliltocatl »

rPlayer6554 wrote: post #494
tliltocatl wrote: post #355

I think people screaming "but AI is the future" doesn't recognize what the problem is. The problem is not AI. The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those. Stop pushing bells and whistles. Give us more extensibility instead. Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more. Ther…

Ok so walk me through how _only_ focusing on the browser core will make them money other than continuing to be dependent on Google. How can they diversify their revenue streams? I agree they should make the browser core good, but right now they are entirely dependent on their biggest competitor.

- Start accepting small individual donations solely for the Firefox team (rather than generalized Mozilla stuff that goes on anything but Firefox).

- Start crowdfunding for features.

- Go RedHat route, offer an enterprise version with centrally managed profiles and DLP feature. Not exactly free-as-in-freedom stuff but still better than adtech.

- Get some EU bureaucrats thru a FUD session against Chrome (does it counts as FUD if it's true?), then apply for some EU funding program. Dirty and messy, still better than adtech.

None of this is particularly lucrative or clean, but I don't see how AI would bring them any __revenue__ (do not confuse with investment) at all. There are too many players there already and many of them are more established - and what Mozilla have?

- Their engineering team? Maybe.

- The browser engine? Completely irrelevant (and that's exactly the problem).

- Their userbase? The userbase they have left seems extremely averse to value-added features in general, and the AI kind in particular.

Then assume they focus on integrating AI into the browser, how do they monetize it next? Sell data? Then there is no reason to choose them over Google. Charge for interference? No chance to compete against established hyperscalers there and would go against their local-first selling point.

The sad truth about platform-crucial software like a web browser is that monetizing it in any way inherently reduces it's value for users. And in case of Firefox it's a pretty small margin that keeps it competitive.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#507

Post by andybp85 »

wvenable wrote: post #499
andybp85 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you have to understand exactly what you're doing, why not just... do it?

That question completely misunderstands what AI is for. Why would I just do it when the AI did it for me in less time that I could myself and mechanically in a way that is arguably harder for a human to do? AI is surprisingly good at identifying all the edge cases.

i probably don't understand. the main thought i have re: llm coding is, why i would want to talk to a insipid, pandering chatbot instead of having fun writing code?

but, as an engineer, i have to say if it works for you and you're getting quality output, then go for it. it's just not for me.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#508

Post by drysart »

rPlayer6554 wrote: post #494
tliltocatl wrote: post #355

I think people screaming "but AI is the future" doesn't recognize what the problem is. The problem is not AI. The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those. Stop pushing bells and whistles. Give us more extensibility instead. Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more. Ther…

Ok so walk me through how _only_ focusing on the browser core will make them money other than continuing to be dependent on Google. How can they diversify their revenue streams? I agree they should make the browser core good, but right now they are entirely dependent on their biggest competitor.

Falling behind on the browser core makes users leave Firefox because the one non-negotiable requirement users have is that the browser works on the websites they need it to work on. Literally nothing else Mozilla tries to do to diversify their revenue streams will matter if the browser they're trying to build it on top of is not sound and functional.

If they weren't slipping on the core browser as much as they have been, there wouldn't be nearly as many shouts as there are today when they instead spend resources on chasing the latest fad.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#509

Post by x0x0 »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #414
close04 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and not really that harmful in itself Unless you can't afford the split focus. If Mozilla can do 1 thing right or 2 things half-assed, and it looks like this is the case, they should stop and focus on strengthening the core before hanging more stuff around it.

They have enough money to split their focus, sugar daddy Google is providing it.

I dunno, clearly not.

I keep trying to use it. vs chrome:

1 - bad at returning memory to the OS; do they expect you to regularly restart the whole browser?

2 - shit at managing cpu usage: I'll regularly find the browser sitting at 20-100% cpu load doing nothing. Chrome handles this like a champ;

3 - it recently lost some bookmarks so hard I had to pull them from backup.

They clearly are not capable of splitting their focus.

Re: Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

#510

Post by x0x0 »

galleywest200 wrote: post #481
tim333 wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just force quit Firefox because it was slowing the macbook with loads of memory use for nothing much running. On with Chrome... They should that sort of thing?

I have not really ever had this issue, and I use Firefox Developer Edition on an M2 Macbook Pro every work day.

I have it too. If you leave firefox running for weeks at a go, it is really bad at returning memory to the OS. m3.
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