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In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

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Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#501

Post by Aurornis »

int_19h wrote: post #464
Aurornis wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the UBI pilot studies included new venture creation (including solo self-employment, not just classic business creation) as part of their measurements. The last few I looked at had zero difference in new business creation between recipients and control group. A lot of the UBI trials have actually had disappointing results. The arguments usually claim that it’s not a valid test because it wasn’t guaranteed…

I actually did the math for US once, calculating how much more tax it would take to give everyone minimum wage. The resulting tax rate would certainly be fairly high, but not excessively so; several European countries have higher brackets today, and their economy doesn't collapse. But also, are you accounting for all the means-tested welfare that such a program would replace ?

> But also, are you accounting for all the means-tested welfare that such a program would replace?

Multiply the US population by the poverty level annual income ($15.6K) and the resulting number is higher than all US federal tax revenue combined. In other words, tax rates would have to more than double across the board.

Subtracting out existing social programs barely moves the needle. Are you sure you did the math, or were you just assuming?

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#502

Post by gfiorav »

crazygringo wrote: post #499
gfiorav wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where you’re being naive. I meant this in other parts of the thread: Americans are more connected to the outcome of taxes because the government doesn’t control every aspect of life. For Europeans, while they understand the concept of taxes, the government’s vastness and involvement in everything make it a black box that they fund without having a say. They can just hope it’s being used effectively (although…

I'm sorry, but you're the one who seems naive here. European governments "control every aspect of life"? What are you on about? Europe isn't Soviet communism, or a dictatorship under Mussolini. You're taking a bizarrely extreme ideological position that does not match reality. Elections in countries like France and Germany are vibrant and heavily contested and citizens are greatly interested and involved. Whether the…

Great. I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Time will tell. I’m still a bit confused about the right-wing remark though.

As I mentioned, my only claim here is that I’ve lived for years in various Western countries. I’ve paid taxes, held jobs, bought and sold homes, made friends, volunteered, and so on. I believe my experiences give me an edge over others who just are “traveling” or “spending the summer.”

I grew up in Europe, and I can tell you that you’ll encounter more right-wing perspectives in a random bar on a Tuesday than you’ll find anywhere in America. Europe has always been an ethnonationalist continent, which is why it surprises me that calling out its inner workings would result in accusations of being right-wing.

Like I said, time will tell.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#503

Post by crazygringo »

gfiorav wrote: post #502
crazygringo wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you're the one who seems naive here. European governments "control every aspect of life"? What are you on about? Europe isn't Soviet communism, or a dictatorship under Mussolini. You're taking a bizarrely extreme ideological position that does not match reality. Elections in countries like France and Germany are vibrant and heavily contested and citizens are greatly interested and involved. Whether the…

Great. I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Time will tell. I’m still a bit confused about the right-wing remark though. As I mentioned, my only claim here is that I’ve lived for years in various Western countries. I’ve paid taxes, held jobs, bought and sold homes, made friends, volunteered, and so on. I believe my experiences give me an edge over others who just are “traveling” or “spending the summer.” I…

I don't know what you're confused about.

Any political scientist will tell you that the American political spectrum is well to the right of the European one, no matter what personal conversations you have in bars.

And you're advocating for less social spending -- that's essentially the definition of right-wing on the economic dimension.

And there's no need for any "time will tell". Conservatives have been complaining about social spending for a solid three-quarters of a century by now. If three generations isn't enough to show that social democracy is a system that works in terms of delivering services, how much more do you need?

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#504

Post by monero-xmr »

int_19h wrote: post #473
monero-xmr wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If more of society’s desires can be delivered with fewer people at lower cost, all of society benefits

Not necessarily. For example, if most of society's wealth is concentrated with a few people, and the rest can get crumbs from that table only by serving the wealthy, then a situation where something is delivered with fewer people at lower cost translates to more people starving because they are no longer economically useful.

It doesn’t matter if 1 guy has 99.99% of all wealth on earth if everyone’s living standard is high and they can afford all of life’s wants

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#505

Post by buzzert »

ninalanyon wrote: post #261
czhu12 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what its worth, the Economist recently wrote about how universal child care can harm children, citing a study from Quebec. > The trio published their first study in 2005, and the results were damning. Shifting to universal child care appeared to lead to a rise in aggression, anxiety and hyperactivity among Quebecer children, as well as a fall in motor and social skills. The effects were large: anxiety rates doubl…

In Norway every child has a right to a barnehage place (kindergarten). It's not free unless you are poor but it is very affordable at a maximum of about 3 000 NOK per month, about 300 USD, for five full days a week. Children in barnehage learn to be social and cooperative, resilient and adaptable. They play outside in all weathers, learn to put on and take off their outer clothes, to set tables, help each other and t…

$300 USD per month sounds insanely expensive

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#506

Post by buzzert »

venturecruelty wrote: post #375
siliconc0w wrote: post #113

My current theory is that we've basically gotten addicted to importing the world's smartest kids so we have been unwilling to invest in our own children.

Man, the "anti-immigration" square on my HN bingo card has a hole in it from all the pen marks. Anyway, we stopped investing in kids because kids aren't profitable in the next quarter, like everything else that's beneficial to society and not the eight wealthy people currently running it. Hope this helps.

Since when did public (government) schools become run for profit?

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#507

Post by venturecruelty »

gfiorav wrote: post #392
venturecruelty wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fussing with language to make rightwing political points (i.e. lying) is the bread and butter of rightwing ideology. You don't say "I don't think governments should spend any money on social services or helping their citizens", because that makes you sound like a terrible person. So you look down your nose and say "Well, it's not really FREE, akshually! I am very smart." And then you prance around tooting your dog wh…

Ah, yes, thank you. I was trying to hide my right-wing tendencies. That’s what right-wing people do... they’re very shy!

Happy to help.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#508

Post by venturecruelty »

buzzert wrote: post #506
venturecruelty wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, the "anti-immigration" square on my HN bingo card has a hole in it from all the pen marks. Anyway, we stopped investing in kids because kids aren't profitable in the next quarter, like everything else that's beneficial to society and not the eight wealthy people currently running it. Hope this helps.

Since when did public (government) schools become run for profit?

Since Milton Friedman.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#509

Post by [deleted] »

frumplestlatz wrote: post #421
venturecruelty wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m not cruel because I think society operates best — in terms of human outcomes — if incentives and disincentives are tied to decisions in ways that maximize the likelihood and benefit of personal responsibility. And how did personal responsibility make housing unaffordable? >Parents need to be responsible for their children. The state should only step in if they fail in their responsibility. How neat and tidy. >Ho…

> I will never stop fighting against people who wield the power of the state to punch down and then point the finger at those same people and blame them. It's disgusting, it's abhorrent, and it must stop. I can see that. Your ideology creates the problems you think we just need more of your ideology to solve. You’re not some warrior for freedom or the oppressed, you’re just another person that mistakes enabling for a…

[deleted]

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#510

Post by venturecruelty »

frumplestlatz wrote: post #422
venturecruelty wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, even the Soviet Union was able to provide free childcare. Really makes you think, doesn't it.

We had it better. We threw that away. Instead of figuring out why and fixing that, you’d apparently prefer that we take a page from the soviets and further embed our social and economic regression into law.

We did figure it out: you give poor people money and services, and they stop being poor. This isn't magic, and your desire to endlessly hurt the people you hate will not change that.
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