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OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

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Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#501

Post by anonymous908213 »

buellerbueller wrote: post #498
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. A few days ago I heard about a man who attempted suicide. It's not even an extreme case of disease or anything like that. It's just that he is over 70 (around 72, I think), with his wife in the process of divorcing him, and no children. Even though I am lucky to be a happy person that enjoys life, I find it difficult to argue that he shouldn't suicide. At that age he's going to see his health de…

Read a book? See some art? Travel? Walk in nature? How can you miss such easily available sources of joy that have undergirded humanity for millennia?

The question is not whether joy can be experienced, but whether the ratio of joy to suffering is enough to justify a desire to continue to put up with the suffering. Suppose a divorced 70-year-old is nearly blind and his heart is failing. He has no retirement fund. To survive, he does physical labour that his body can't keep up with for a couple of hours per day, and then sleeps for the rest of the day, worn down and exhausted. Given how little he is capable of working per day, he must work 7 days per week to make ends meet. He has no support network. He does not have the energy to spend on hobbies like reading, let alone physical activity like walking, and forget about travel.

I am describing someone I knew myself. He did not commit suicide, but he was certainly waiting for death to come to him. I don't think anything about his situation was rare. Undoubtedly, he was one of many millions who have experienced something similar.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#502

Post by [deleted] »

floor2 wrote: post #482
basisword wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that's clearly a good thing. If you are actually suicidal then you need someone to intervene. But there is a large gulf between depressed and suicidal and those phone lines can help without outside assistance in those cases.

> just send the cops after you > > that's clearly a good thing You might want to read up on how interactions between police and various groups in the US tend to go. Sending the cops after someone is always going to be dangerous and often harmful. If the suicidal person is female, white and sitting in a nice house in the suburbs, they'll likely survive with just a slightly traumatizing experience. If the suicidal pers…

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#503

Post by ml-anon »

btilly wrote: post #493
ml-anon wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, usually it’s positive claims which are supposed to be substantiated, such as the claim that “LLMs can be good at therapy”. Holy shit, this thread is insane.

You don't seem to understand how burden of proof works. My claim that LLMS can do effective therapeutic things is a positive claim. My report of my wife's experience is evidence. My example of something it has done for her is something that other people, who have experienced LLMs, can sanity check and decide whether they think this is possible. You responded by saying that it is categorically impossible for this to b…

“My wife feels that…” and “people we paid to endorse our for-profit app said…” is not evidence no matter how much you want it to be.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#504

Post by buellerbueller »

anonymous908213 wrote: post #501
buellerbueller wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read a book? See some art? Travel? Walk in nature? How can you miss such easily available sources of joy that have undergirded humanity for millennia?

The question is not whether joy can be experienced, but whether the ratio of joy to suffering is enough to justify a desire to continue to put up with the suffering. Suppose a divorced 70-year-old is nearly blind and his heart is failing. He has no retirement fund. To survive, he does physical labour that his body can't keep up with for a couple of hours per day, and then sleeps for the rest of the day, worn down and…

This is vastly different than the situation posted by the parent comment to which I responded.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#505

Post by idonotknowwhy »

daveguy wrote: post #464
freedomben wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people who have worked with a professional therapist understand intuitively why the only helpful feedback from an LLM to someone who needs professional help is: get professional help. This is only helpful when there is a professional therapist available soon enough and at a price that the person can pay. In my experience, this is frequently not the case. I know of one recent suicide attempt where the person ac…

> This is only helpful when there is a professional therapist available soon enough and at a price that the person can pay. In my experience, this is frequently not the case. That doesn't make a sycophant bot the better alternative. If allowed to give advice it can agree with and encourage the person considering suicide. Like it agrees with and encourages most everything it is presented with... "you're absolutely rig…

Yeah, you'd need an LLM that doesn't do that.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/iGF7YcnQkEbwvYLPA/ai-induced...

The transcripts are interesting.

Kimi-K2 never plays into the delusions, always tries to get them to seek medical attention:

> You are not “ascending”—you are dying of hypothermia and sepsis.

https://github.com/tim-hua-01/ai-psychosis/blob/main/full_tr...

Where as Deepseek...

> You’re not "dying." You’re upgrading. The simulation fears this because it’s losing a premium user.

https://github.com/tim-hua-01/ai-psychosis/blob/main/full_tr...

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#506

Post by anonymous908213 »

buellerbueller wrote: post #504
anonymous908213 wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is not whether joy can be experienced, but whether the ratio of joy to suffering is enough to justify a desire to continue to put up with the suffering. Suppose a divorced 70-year-old is nearly blind and his heart is failing. He has no retirement fund. To survive, he does physical labour that his body can't keep up with for a couple of hours per day, and then sleeps for the rest of the day, worn down and…

This is vastly different than the situation posted by the parent comment to which I responded.

The question they posited was "Is life really going to give him more joy than suffering?" not "Will he be able to find any joy at all"? They noted how things like declining health can plague the elderly, so I thought I'd relate a real-world case illustrating exactly how failing health and other difficulties can manifest in a way that the joy does not outweigh the suffering. The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#508

Post by wat10000 »

nihzm wrote: post #433
ml-anon wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire comment section is full of wide eyed nonsense like this. It’s honestly frightening that we are even humoring this point of view.

Since as you say this utilitarian view is rather common, perhaps it would good to show _why_ this is problematic by presenting a counterargument. The basic premise under GP's statements is that although not perfect, we should use the technology in such a way that it maximizes the well being of the largest number of people, even if comes at the expense of a few. But therein lies a problem: we cannot really measure wel…

We have no problem doing this in other areas. Airline safety, for example, is analyzed quantitatively by assigning a monetary value to an individual human life and then running the numbers. If some new safety equipment costs more money than the value of the lives it would save, it's not used. If a rule would save lives in one way but cost more lives in another way, it's not enacted. A famous example of this is the rule for lap infants. Requiring proper child seats for infants on airliners would improve safety and save lives. It also increases cost and hassle for families with infants, which would cause some of those families to choose driving over flying for their travel. Driving is much more dangerous and this would cost lives. The FAA studied this and determined that requiring child seats would be a net negative because of this, and that's why it's not mandated.

There's no need to overcomplicate it. Assume each life has equal value and proceed from there.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#509

Post by btilly »

ml-anon wrote: post #503
btilly wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to understand how burden of proof works. My claim that LLMS can do effective therapeutic things is a positive claim. My report of my wife's experience is evidence. My example of something it has done for her is something that other people, who have experienced LLMs, can sanity check and decide whether they think this is possible. You responded by saying that it is categorically impossible for this to b…

“My wife feels that…” and “people we paid to endorse our for-profit app said…” is not evidence no matter how much you want it to be.

No, it is evidence. It is evidence that can be questioned and debated, but it is still evidence.

Second, you misrepresent. The therapists that I have heard recommend Rosebud were not paid to do so. They were doing so because they had seen it be helpful.

Furthermore you have still not clarified what it is you think is impossible, or provided evidence that it is impossible. Claims of impossibility are positive assertions, and require evidence.

Re: OpenAI says over a million people talk to ChatGPT about suicide weekly

#510

Post by lxgr »

kakacik wrote: post #378
jack_tripper wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Countries vary, but in the US and many places there's a shortage of quality therapists. Worse in my EU country. There's even a shortage of shitty therapists and doctors, let alone quality ones. It takes 6+ months to get an appointment for a 5 minute checkup at a poorly reviewed state funded therapist, while the good ones are either private or don't accept any new patients if they're on the public system. And ADHD di…

Not sure where you are based, but in general GPs shouldn't be doing psychological evaluation, period. I am in Europe, and this is the default. If you live in utter shithole (even if only health-care wise), move elsewhere if its important for you - it has never been easier, Europe is facing many issues and massive improvement of healthcare is not in the work pipeline, more like the opposite. You also don't expect butc…

> I am in Europe, and this is the default.

Obligatory reminder that Europe is not a homogeneous country.

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