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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#501

Post by robotresearcher »

Noaidi wrote: post #397
prmoustache wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dementia and Alzheimer is not something that can simply be managed throught treatment. It is an inexorable descent into suffering for both the person and its entourage with absolutely zero hope of getting better. At best in the last stages you get very short glimpses of normality within hours of confusions, frustrations, anger and pain. If I am ever diagnosed with one of those, I absolutely want the chance to end my…

I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all at different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift? Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it’s a burden? If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that yo…

Good lord, we have very different interpretations of ‘burden’. I had healthy, happy, typical children that I loved to bits and they were absolutely a burden! Some days I could barely deal.

Acknowledging that the things you love are a huge pain in the ass sometimes and keeping on loving them is perfectly healthy.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#502

Post by Noaidi »

jncfhnb wrote: post #497
Noaidi wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as constant suffering and there’s no such thing as constant joy. Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? It’s our attachment to ourselves that brings us both joy and suffering. So, I’m sorry, if you want to get rid of suffering you’re going to get rid of joy as well. So I don’t know if dying b…

> Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? Bullshit argument. The suffering that many people experience is profound. These people don’t have a more profound experience of joy than those whose lives are chill. And the happy lives of people who haven’t suffered are not better because the sufferers have felt worse. > I…

> The suffering that many people experience is profound. These people don’t have a more profound experience of joy than those whose lives are chill. And the happy lives of people who haven’t suffered are not better because the sufferers have felt worse.

Some people have great suffering. Some people have small suffering. But the suffering is the same, and the source is the same. You don’t need great suffering to understand suffering.

A lot of people who have everything they want still suffer, even though nothing is wrong in their life. That is the most interesting kind of suffering to me. But it almost seems like you think these things you’re totally independent or maybe I don’t understand your argument.

> “You should suffer because the next part may be even worse suffering” is such a fucked up argument.

It’s a logical argument. And it kept my brother alive who had no hope and wanted to kill himself, then he has Hope again and he didn’ think about killing himself.

I don’t know what he might’ve done if he read the original article. I might’ve not have had the 20 years with my brother that I did.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#503

Post by Noaidi »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #459
Noaidi wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all. But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering. Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best…

My only definition of “morality” is are you doing something that affects other people. If you aren’t doing anything to hurt other people, I consider that “morally neutral”. If you aren’t doing anything to help other people, that’s “morally good”. How is my hypothetically deciding to end my own suffering “morally bad”? I don’t owe suffering from a terminal illness to anyone. Your calculation for what you will suffer t…

> How is my hypothetically deciding to end my own suffering “morally bad”?

Because you’re saying that life is not worth living at some point. But that’s just my level of morality. I think life is so rare and precious that I do not even want to miss the suffering that’s given to me.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#504

Post by Noaidi »

leakycap wrote: post #478
Noaidi wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop assuming you know what suffering I’ve had in my own body and my own life. I don’t wish to discuss it here, but I don’t think it needs to be discussed. My experience doesn’t matter in the logic of the argument.

If you don't want to talk about it, you can't expect anyone around you to take it into account. You can leave it unsaid if you aren't going to say it, and either way you claim it isn't relevant.

I am saying it’s relevant because suffering is suffering. It has the same source so it does not matter if it’s a big suffering or a little suffering. Understanding suffering does not need a degree of suffering. It just needs suffering.

The man in the original article was not suffering at all yet he killed himself. What kind of suffering was that? It’s not that he was suffering. He didn’t wanna suffer at all. He didn’t want to suffer shame. This man knew so little about suffering that he took his own life rather than try to figure it out and the remaining years of his life.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#505

Post by Noaidi »

fn-mote wrote: post #443
Noaidi wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was this part that stuck out to me. “His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.” I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new. But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.

> it sounds like he lost hope in his future People in their 80's are watching their friends die one after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else. I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression" is wrong-headed. Having some older friends migh…

I am old. I have friends in their 70s and I have friends that died of cancer and suicide and heart attacks. I had a father who died terribly of a rapid spreading cancer and a mother who lived with chronic pain and heart disease for 30 years. I have friends who like me live in poverty some of them suffer from it, others of us don’t.

If you lived in your 80s and you have not figured out what life is about then that’s not a problem with life, that’s a problem with the person who did not figure out life.

This is the spiritual quest that I think is missing in the world right now. I’m not really being woo-woo here and I’m not talking about God or any other mythical being. I’m talking about the amazing thing that it is to be alive. Being alive is not just about happiness, but you can be joyous experiencing both happiness and suffering. Our suffering will end, and our happiness will end.

Acceptance of the things you can’t change is the key here. I am no stoic that’s for sure. If you’re too hot, move into the shade. But if I have no shade and I’m suffering the heat, how much more happy am I going to be when I finally reach shade!

It’s my friends who went through the deepest suffering that are the most happy and joyous. It’s these people who teach us about life, Not the people who kill themselves because they’re afraid of looking like an old man.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#506

Post by Noaidi »

robotresearcher wrote: post #501
Noaidi wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all at different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift? Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it’s a burden? If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that yo…

Good lord, we have very different interpretations of ‘burden’. I had healthy, happy, typical children that I loved to bits and they were absolutely a burden! Some days I could barely deal. Acknowledging that the things you love are a huge pain in the ass sometimes and keeping on loving them is perfectly healthy.

A burden is a heavy load. The stronger you are the less things are a burden to you. In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the fewer burdens you will have.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#507

Post by Noaidi »

tsimionescu wrote: post #470
Noaidi wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all at different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift? Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it’s a burden? If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that yo…

Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is that a person who suffers from this is simply not the person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up in a place that they don't re…

> Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia?

Yes.

Did I say that it was easy? Did I say that the spiritual way through all this was just pretending like everything is OK? No, it’s a very difficult process.

Avoiding suffering is impossible. Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering. Only understanding suffering and where it originates can get rid of suffering, and you don’t do that by avoiding it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#508

Post by sokoloff »

perching_aix wrote: post #457
sokoloff wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would posit that caring for helpless infants is an objective good. It’s not clear to me how I’d explain that to someone who doesn’t inherently understand it.

That's a bit contradictory, isn't it? If caring for helpless infants is an objective good only for those who inherently understand why that is, then that's a dependence on the observer's understanding and so it is subjective. There's a world of difference between something being objectively a certain way, and between feeling really strongly some way about something and thinking that everyone else reasonable would fee…

Everyone to whom I’d explain that was cared for as a helpless infant.

If at any point we’d have stopped doing that, we wouldn’t be here to be arguing about it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#509

Post by leakycap »

Noaidi wrote: post #504
leakycap wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want to talk about it, you can't expect anyone around you to take it into account. You can leave it unsaid if you aren't going to say it, and either way you claim it isn't relevant.

I am saying it’s relevant because suffering is suffering. It has the same source so it does not matter if it’s a big suffering or a little suffering. Understanding suffering does not need a degree of suffering. It just needs suffering. The man in the original article was not suffering at all yet he killed himself. What kind of suffering was that? It’s not that he was suffering. He didn’t wanna suffer at all. He didn’…

> It has the same source so it does not matter if it’s a big suffering or a little suffering.

What religious belief are you trying to explain here?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#510

Post by perching_aix »

sokoloff wrote: post #508
perching_aix wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit contradictory, isn't it? If caring for helpless infants is an objective good only for those who inherently understand why that is, then that's a dependence on the observer's understanding and so it is subjective. There's a world of difference between something being objectively a certain way, and between feeling really strongly some way about something and thinking that everyone else reasonable would fee…

Everyone to whom I’d explain that was cared for as a helpless infant. If at any point we’d have stopped doing that, we wouldn’t be here to be arguing about it.

And how does that assign goodness to it all?
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