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They Thought They Were Free (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#501

Post by permo-w »

rixed wrote: post #490
permo-w wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is your definition of "national character"?

That would be a trait of character that most inhabitants of a country acquire by education, mimetism or mere abituation, that distinguish them from inhabitants of most other countries; Like a taste for some kind of food or music, a respect (or lack thereof) for some social rules like the patience or reluctance to wait in line, etc. I don't believe this kind of trait can influence economics or politics in any signific…

such a bizarre thing to think. politics and even more so economics are literally made up of the way people act

I know it's a bit rude to say this, but I don't believe deep down you actually think this. more likely you've just got a funny idea about what's offensive or prejudiced that's blocking you from looking at this rationally

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#502

Post by MrJohz »

immibis wrote: post #494
MrJohz wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I think that's a bit overblown. In theory, Germans are famously methodical and precise, in practice the rail network is falling apart, a major bridge in my city recently collapsed due to lack of proper maintenance, and "made in Germany" is mainly an encouragement to buy local, rather than buying for quality. My experience of Germans, having lived among them for almost a decade, and having married one of them, is…

Germany's "rail network is falling apart" means you are delayed a few hours on a cross-country trip, which is unimaginable luxury to people from some regions, which I think proves the point. As I see it, they're running the system at close to capacity, so it has long queue times [1] and little spare capacity to return to normal after a disruption. It's one of several valid ways to run a system. You can have fewer tra…

I'm not talking about whether Germany's rail network is better or worse than other people's rail networks, but rather whether it embodies the supposed national characteristic of being methodical and precise.

The problem with the German rail network is not that they are running too many trains (I mean, they're planning on shutting services down!). The problem is primarily that there has been a significant lack of investment in necessary repairs and upgrades to maintain existing capacity levels, let alone support the increased capacity that comes from a growing population. The two options here are not "one time but rare" or "not on time but regular" — you can have both things, and it is completely within the power of a properly-funded DB to implement both things.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#503

Post by ThrowMeAway1618 »

jackstraw42 wrote: post #41
HK-NC wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasnt Germany better off in the decades following WW2 than the British that defeated them?

The Allies defeated Germany, not the British.

And definitely not those cheese-eating surrender monkeys[0], amirite?

Wow! That was hard work. I'm hungry. Gonna go get me some freedom fries. Yum!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eating_surrender_monkey...

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#504

Post by permo-w »

Levitz wrote: post #337
tbrownaw wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It requires there to be meaningful systematic differences between the people who happen to live in different countries.

So... Culture? Are we doubting the existence of culture now?

this is such a weird debate to have. have these people never been to a foreign country? I feel like they're just trying to not be prejudiced in place of observing reality

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#505

Post by permo-w »

shermantanktop wrote: post #481
permo-w wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

all of the things you listed make up or result from national character. besides some short interludes, for example, Japan has had the same party in power since 1955. it's a weird thing to deny the existence of. different nations act differently. it's not heresy to make generalisations, particularly in the age of nationalism when many/most people actively try to set and follow their country's norms

Isn’t that a thing called culture? National character could be another word for it, except “nation” is a modern concept and is highly volatile. Check out what’s happened to the borders of Germany over the last few hundred years.

okay then, call it culture, call it national character, it changes nothing. culture affects--dictates, even--the politics and economics of a country massively

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#506

Post by moomin »

mcfunley wrote: post #292
moomin wrote: post #105

I’ve read the book. It’s genuinely interesting. It’s very interesting to see how people misremember the post-war years. It also contains a) passages that are very much quoted out of context and b) an awful lot of stuff about “national character” that is… questionable. I highly recommend actually reading it and understanding what it is and isn’t. Mostly I learned that there’s no simple answers, but also that people an…

To your point, the thing that jumped out at me reading this book is how familiar the German characters are. People have loved to imagine that the Nazi era in Germany was so anomalous it could never happen again. But no, the Germans were just like us.

Terry Pratchett says something very similar in Pyramids.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#507

Post by api »

aidenn0 wrote: post #471
api wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of it reminds me of the CCP, which I think is openly considered a model by some neo-authoritarians. Ubiquitous mass surveillance, social credit, and state capitalism with heavy control though regulatory pressure. I assume we will eventually see party men installed on boards of major companies, especially in media, tech, and entertainment. The “tech right” is a major player here and a lot of those folks idolize C…

> I think the US has been spiraling toward authoritarianism since 9/11 personally. This did not start yesterday or with the most recent election, nor is it exclusively the result of the right or the Republican Party. A lot of people to the left have also abandoned liberalism and ideas like free speech. There’s been a broad based shift away from liberalism and individualism and toward collectivism, which always leads…

Power tends to flow uphill, so it seems like over time it's "natural" for power to concentrate in the executive. This has to be actively fought, and we haven't been fighting it. It's analogous to antitrust in the economy.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#508

Post by nobody9999 »

scandox wrote: post #115
nkrisc wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "gender ideology" what we're now calling the idea that a tiny minority of people want to live their lives a little differently that the rest of us without harming anyone and mostly be left alone?

I think the reality of what has gone on has several faces which are all worth thinking about: 1. A group of people that want to be different without harming anyone and be left alone 2. A group of people demanding certain specific and new legal rights with respect to how they are different 3. A group of people advocating for new social and linguistic norms around said difference 3. A group of people socially shaming p…

8. A tiny (less than 1% of the population) group of people who you are (somehow) imbuing with enormous power and clout in our society, even those these are people who have been loudly derided, shamed, beaten and even killed by a sizable group of folks in our society.

Leave those folks alone, for heaven's sake. If you don't like them, stay away from them. If you don't want to give them simple human respect, it's legal to be an asshole.

All this anger/hatred focused on a tiny group. What gives you (or me or anyone else, for that matter) the right to tell other people how they should live -- especially when it doesn't affect you in the slightest.

People don't just "choose" to be transgender. And they certainly don't choose to do so because of the much higher risk of discrimination, abuse, violence and murder.

Did I mention that trans folks are an incredibly tiny sliver of the population (<1%)?

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#509

Post by ThrowMeAway1618 »

nerdponx wrote: post #459
brightball wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar to calling everyone Nazi’s and fascists who has an opposing point of view? When you take a step back it becomes very clear that this escalating messaging is being push onto both sides of the political isle to create these feelings. I remember in the span of two weeks seeing almost identical posts urging people to train because you are going to have to fight. The wording was almost identical only one post said…

> My only question who is pushing the messaging and who does it benefit? You get 0 "both sides gotcha" points for this one because there is a clear answer when it comes to right wing messaging, and it has been the same since the 19th century, long before modern conservatism existed. It's big business owners and anyone else who stands to gain from an oligopoly economy backed by an authoritarian state that punishes and…

>who is pushing the horrible left wing messaging that racism is bad?

It's those triple-damned Demonrats! In between molesting and eating babies, they go on and on about "multiculturalism" and "systemic racism" and all kinds of other ridiculous crap.

Yes. The darkies are inferior and need to be firmly controlled and/or exterminated. No sane person thinks any different. Those people aren't really people, are they?

They're subhuman animals who need to be dealt with. The fact that they can touch our women should be an immediate death sentence.

Hell, I'm not really sure why we're even bothering with these "deportations." Just shoot on sight for heaven's sake. Just the way Jesus says we should!

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#510

Post by nerdponx »

thomassmith65 wrote: post #425
nerdponx wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inaccurate to blame Trump. He is a greedy egotistical idiot. Blaming Trump is like blaming a rock that hit you in the head. Look up and pay attention to who threw the rock. Blame them. The Trump presidency is the culmination of a roughly 45 year campaign to return the United States to the Gilded Age, and to ensure it stays that way until it's bled dry and nothing remains of its corpse. The political and social p…

A country doesn't become fascist solely because of one man. If my previous comment implies that, I worded it poorly. If I blame anyone it's the American electorate. It's tempting to continue and discuss which phenomena I blame for the poor judgment of the average American, but that would triple the length of my comment.

The American electorate, especially the group that voted for Trump, has been abused by their federal and often also state governments, sometimes for decades. Not everyone is a good person and not everyone can be "saved" for lack of a better term. But by and large their support for Trump is rooted in desperation, and they have been cruelly manipulated by a powerful propaganda machine. Many of Trump's supporters already are or soon will be his victims.
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