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The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

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501–510 of 611 posts

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are conflating 2 things: - ability to privately give money to someone (mechanism is irrelevant, by hand or by way of a blockchain) - self-custody risks for uninformed users The first one is the privacy argument. Would you be comfortable if you’re not allowed to give the cash in your pocket to someone without someone watching over? If the answer is no, you are pro privacy for financial transactions. Cash h…

I don't have a predetermined opinion on whether it is good or bad for cash to be untraceable. I think arguments for privacy are pretty poorly argued and often come down to "isn't the idea of someone watching you icky" which this thread is not disabusing me of.

> I think arguments for privacy are pretty poorly argued and often come down to "isn't the idea of someone watching you icky" which this thread is not disabusing me of.

Now imagine that "someone" hates people like you, has the power to hurt you with impunity and is actively looking for any excuse to do so.

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#502
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever answers the “what do you have to hide” question, which is a little sus.

Okay, so reply with your credit card numbers, links to all your cell phone photos, your DNA test results, your passwords, and your medical history. What do you have to hide? You: "But you are randos on the internet, not the government!" So I can get any of that from anyone if I just bribe the right government official? Or if I want that info for nefarious purposes I just have to get hired at the right agency? Or I ca…

No need to even use police corruption. A brief look at the current US government, and how it suddenly came to be in the freeest and most democratic of countries, ought to suffice to show why not any government should ever get a free pass.

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a predetermined opinion on whether it is good or bad for cash to be untraceable. I think arguments for privacy are pretty poorly argued and often come down to "isn't the idea of someone watching you icky" which this thread is not disabusing me of.

The main argument for privacy is that a lack of privacy is the primary vehicle of crimes against humanity. When you do not have privacy, you must then have trust . You are trusting , typically blindly, that your governments and other organizations will not use knowledge against you. Before the Holocaust, Germany built a registry of known Jews by census. Obviously at the time, nobody knew what it could be used for, th…

This seems like an argument against the state in every form, you could say the same thing about the government collecting taxes, having a police department, courts etc.

Unless you are a committed anarchist though, you likely see a limit to the use of the precautionary principle as applied to state capacity in general.

Why is this argument sufficient to stop the state from monitoring financial transactions, but not sufficient to prevent the existence of a justice system?

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#504
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property rights exist within a legal framework defined by the people, through law. What you're talking about here with self-ownership and the state "infringing" upon property rights when you're taxed and can't transact privately, it seems less than "reasonable". It seems like you're trying to paint routine and widely accepted functions of democratic governments as if they were unreasonable, authoritarian overreach.

Authoritarian overreach is itself a routine and widely accepted aspect of democratic governments. Authoritarians get 1 vote/person, same as everyone else. They're allowed to advocate for policies and score the occasional outrageous political win, just like everyone else. There are a lot of them out there and they are a significant political force. Something being routine and done democratically is no defence at all o…

Voters generally seem willing to embrace authoritarian solutions when it is applied to the things they dislike. The political classes have multiple incentives to appeal to those voters. Outside of a few outliers, neither group generally concerns themselves with the underlying principles of civil liberties until their favored causes are attacked. Hypocrisy abounds. Reasoning from first principles is dismissed as ideological extremism.

From here it is easy to see how the incentives of a democratic-regulatory-state work against property rights, free speech, privacy rights and other civil liberties.

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main argument for privacy is that a lack of privacy is the primary vehicle of crimes against humanity. When you do not have privacy, you must then have trust . You are trusting , typically blindly, that your governments and other organizations will not use knowledge against you. Before the Holocaust, Germany built a registry of known Jews by census. Obviously at the time, nobody knew what it could be used for, th…

This seems like an argument against the state in every form, you could say the same thing about the government collecting taxes, having a police department, courts etc. Unless you are a committed anarchist though, you likely see a limit to the use of the precautionary principle as applied to state capacity in general. Why is this argument sufficient to stop the state from monitoring financial transactions, but not su…

> This seems like an argument against the state in every form, you could say the same thing about the government collecting taxes, having a police department, courts etc.

Yes and no.

Yes in that: all of those tools can be abused.

We need to take steps to ensure they are not, and we need to actively deprive the government of tools they can use for evil. The US has fought wars over this, which we why we created the constitution as we did.

No in that: information is both everlasting and fundamental. Privacy does not address bits or paper, those are proxies. Privacy addresses the human mind. This is the key people miss when they try to make an analogy.

The police and justice system only address actions by their nature. They are fundamentally restricted.

Private violations go to a deeper, lower, level. They attack the precursor to actions - thoughts and identity. Who you are, and what you believe.

What does this mean in practice?

Suppose I am a terrorist. If I want to avoid the justice system, it's simple. I will not commit acts of terror. I am untouchable, no amount of police activity can compromise my life or liberty.

Suppose we, instead, don't look at actions, and attack privacy. Suppose you deduce I am a terrorist. Maybe from the color of my house, from the jokes in my messages, from my patterns of movement, from the length of my hair, from the activities at my job.

Now, I can no longer avoid the attack, because it is intrinsic to my character. Like a stain, or a marker.

In theory this sounds like a good thing: we caught terrorists before they could commit terror.

But notice something: we cannot know someone's identity or beliefs. Mind reading is currently impossible. We are trying to implement thought crimes, without the ability to know thoughts.

This is compounded with the fact that surveillance is forever. Every data point collected on you, we should assume, will outlive you.

It does not matter if you're not actually a terrorist and you're just a brown person, and then you spend the next 10 years donating to children's hospitals. The damage is done.

This is all, of course, the happy path: we're trying to get terrorists. I'm assuming the government is not evil.

But, that's a bad assumption, isn't it? Time passes whether you want it to or not. What is good tomorrow is not what is good today.

This doesn't mean privacy should be absolute. But it does mean that a complete lack of privacy is disasterous.

Up until right about now, that has simply not been possible. We are limited by the physical world and technology.

What we have right now is a fatal combination of unprecedented surveillance tools and a complete disdain for privacy.

Make no mistake: such a combination will result in casualties never before seen to mankind. This allows a type of warfare and destruction that operates at a more fundamental level than primitive guns and tanks. Even nuclear weaponry is nothing in the face of the absolute dissolution of privacy.

If you don't agree with me, I don't need to kill you or your family. I don't need to invade your country. I know what everyone is thinking, so I will change their thoughts, and now you do not disagree with me. Think supercharged propaganda and complete silence of dissent.

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#507
sometimes you wonder if people have become so thoroughly captured by the status quo they can no longer even conceive of a monetary system existing that is not entirely dependent on custodians acting on someone's behalf

it's not the developers of bitcoin's fault your entire reg compliance apparatus was constructed on requiring intermediaries

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Monero ever came close to Bitcoin's popularity, it would be outlawed. Plain as that. You can't get freedom through technology.

Freedom here means transacting without: -- anti-money laundering safeguards sanctions enforcement consumer protection tax enforcement fraud prevention systems -- It is very true that technology won't get you this freedom from sensible legal requirements we impose on financial transactions. That's obviously a good thing, but I guess people who are in crypto would disagree.

Freedom with crypto means I can pay bills without unjust barriers, and no individual and especially no "financial institution" (ultimately the governments) decides if my transaction goes through or can confiscate the money without confiscating me.

With Paypal, Stripe, Visa, Mastercard, and all the payment gateways and controlled entities in between, you will be banned for a "trade secret" reason which they have no legal obligation to reveal. Example 1: https://kiwifarms.st/threads/payment-processor-censorship-vi... (You may discredit the source and ignore factual information and numerous examples at your own discretion)

When you lost the ability to pay for things, you can be starved, of food and more importantly your principles and dignity.

Like many other issues that I consider political, what is important to me and what I believe to be actually righteous in the end is more important than the issues of e.g. personal responsibility from being scammed, or criminal and money laundering transactions. Remember where the term "money laundering" came from.

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is that privacy, especially of financial transactions, is becoming illegal. Any technology that allows you to send or spend money anonymously will be attacked by our governments. They won't be allowed. It's probably a bit worse than that. It's not specific to transactions or spending. Eventually any IP talking to another IP without the mandatory metadata to link it to a physical identity will be illegal. R…

Don’t understand this pessimism. There are a large number of countries in the world. You can migrate out of a country if they start doing insane things like this. I would consider leaving UK very seriously if I was building a life there now, as an example.

>Don’t understand this pessimism. There are a large number of countries in the world. You can migrate out of a country if they start doing insane things like this.

Unfortunately in 2025 it is a race to the bottom. While some countries (such as the UK) are sinking faster than others, there isn't a single country I can think of that is moving in the right direction when it comes to privacy, free speech and civil liberties.

Re: The treasury is expanding the Patriot Act to attack Bitcoin self custody

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two components to price: what the thing is worth, and what you might be willing to convince someone else to buy it from you in the future for. The latter is the speculative component. The former must be related to some intrinsic property of the thing. For example, an orange has some minimum price, because if nothing else it's composed of matter and so can weight things down. If bitcoin is useless to transac…

> what the thing is worth This is subjective. Value is subjective. This is taught in many introductory economics classes. > an orange has some minimum price, because if nothing else it's composed of matter and so can weight things down You talk as if "minimum price" is objective. The "minimum price" you're referring to here is the most useless, but valued, property of the object for you . For other people, having wei…

>You talk as if "minimum price" is objective. The "minimum price" you're referring to here is the most useless, but valued, property of the object for you. For other people, having weight can be a burden.

It doesn't matter. The things oranges are good for are known, even if they're not applicable to you personally. Those applications are objective. It is objectively true that oranges are edible, even if you subjectively don't like them. It is objectively true that an orange can weight paper down, even if you can't carry even a single orange more right now.

Of course, sometimes there's an asymmetry of information where someone might price something incorrectly (e.g. someone doesn't know that oranges can now be used as fusion fuel, so he sells it for less). But the fact that we can say that the price is "incorrect" means there is a correct price.

>Again you speak as if as if everyone assumes the same value system as you, but differ only in a penchant for gambling in the form of price speculation.

I don't see you giving any examples of what Bitcoin is good for.

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