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I ditched Docker for Podman

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Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#501

Post by ibejoeb »

rsyring wrote: post #371
dathinab wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> build/package Podman as part of their OS release process. But that is notoriously out-of-date. providing duplicate/additional non official builds for other OS is - undermining the OSes package curation - confusing for the user - cost additional developer time, which for most OSS is fairly limited - for non vendorable system dependencies this additional dev time cost can be way higher in all kinds of surprising ways…

> cost additional developer time, which for most OSS is fairly limited Mostly agree. But something like Podman w/ RedHat behind it is unlikely to be limited in the same way a lot of community OSS projects are. Unfortunately, I disagree with just about every other point you made but don't think it's worth responding point-by-point. In short, I think a project having dedicated builds for popular OSes is a win-win for j…

>something like Podman w/ RedHat behind it is unlikely to be limited in the same way a lot of community OSS projects are

exactly. I've built podman for debian. It's not an esoteric target. It gets a little hairy with all of the capabilities stuff and selinux, but it's feasible. Give me, I don't know, $10k a quarter and I'd probably do it.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#502

Post by jchw »

I primarily use Podman but it is worth noting a few things:

- Podman is usually used "rootless", but it doesn't have to be. It can also be used with rootful containers. It's still daemonless, though it can shim the Docker socket (very useful for using i.e. Docker Compose.)

- Docker can be used in a rootless fashion too. It will still run a daemon, but it can be a user service using user namespaces. Personally I think Podman does much better here.

Podman also has some other interesting advantages, like better systemd integrations. Sometimes Kubernetes just isn't necessarily; Podman + Systemd works well in a lot of those cases. (Note though that I have yet to try Quadlets.) Though unfortunately I don't think even the newer Quadlets integration has some basic niceties that Kubernetes has (like simple ways to do zero downtime deployments.)

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#503

Post by stryan »

pvtmert wrote: post #477
stryan wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but "podman-systemd.unit.5" used to be the primary Quadlet documentation (a remnant of when it was podman-generate-systemd perhaps?) with every Quadlet file type (.container, .volume, .network, etwc) documented on one page. The new docs split that out into separate podman-container/volume/etc.unit(5) pages, with quadlet.7 being the index page. So they're still linking to the same documentation, just the organi…

Not podman user (but currently trying to install to give it a shot), this comment stream shows how even the documentation "randomly disappearing" on a project that claims in production-ready or stable state. (Or lack thereof) On the contrary, docker documentation *is* stable, I had bookmarks from 10-years ago on the *latest* editions, that still work today. The final link may have changed, but at least, there is a re…

The Podman reference section, which is what OP linked to, is a direct web version of the man pages. The main method of accessing it, the man pages, has not changed.

It's a different style of documentation organization: if you want to link to a specific version you should link to the specific version not latest. I won't argue it's necessarily a better way of doing things than Docker, but knowing it's the same thing as what's with the package is nice.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#504

Post by seabrookmx »

goldman7911 wrote: post #172
t43562 wrote: post #21

To provide 1 contrary opinion to all the others saying they have a problem: Podman rocks for me! I find docker hard to use and full of pitfalls and podman isn't any worse. On the plus side, any company I work for doesn't have to worry about licences. Win win!

You only have to worry about licences if you use Docker DESKTOP. Why not use RANCHER Desktop? I have been using it by years. Tested it in Win11 and Linux Mint. I can have even a local kubernetes.

Why not use Docker Engine/CE on Linux so you don't have to run a VM?

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#505

Post by latentsea »

const_cast wrote: post #478
rcv wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely don't understand what docker brings to the table. I mean, I get the value prop. But it's really not that hard to set up http on vanilla Ubuntu (or God forbid, OpenBSD) and not really have issues. Sounds great if you're only running a single web server or whatever. My team builds a fairly complex system that's comprised of ~45 unique services. Those services are managed by different teams with slightly d…

[flagged]

I like how you didn't even ask for any context that would help you evaluate whether or not their chosen architecture is actually suitable for their environment before just blurting out advice that may or may not be applicable (though you would have no idea, not having enquired).

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#506

Post by sroerick »

Shog9 wrote: post #430
sroerick wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

Reproducibility? No. Not having to regularly rebuild the whole dev environment because I need to work on one particular Python app once a quarter and its build chain reliably breaks other stuff? Priceless.

I know this pain, and Docker absolutely makes sense for this use case, but I feel like we would both agree that this is a duct tape and bubble gum solution? Though a totally justifiable one

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#507

Post by sroerick »

bolobo wrote: post #447
sroerick wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

> I genuinely don't understand what docker brings to the table. I mean, I get the value prop. But it's really not that hard to set up http on vanilla Ubuntu (or God forbid, OpenBSD) and not really have issues. For me, as an ex-ops, the value proposition is to be able to package a complex stack made of one or more db, several services and tools (ours and external), + describe the interface of these services with the s…

OK, I completely agree with this.

That said, I'm not a nix guy, but to me, intuitively NixOS wins for this use case. It seems like you could either

A. Use declarative OS installs across deployments B. Put your app into a container which sometimes deploys it's own kernel and then sometimes doesn't and this gets pushed to a third party cloud registry, or you can set up your own registry, and then this container runs on a random ubuntu container or cloud hosting site where you basically don't administer or do any ops you just kind of use it as an empty vessel which exists to run your Docker container.

I get that in practice, these are basically the same, and I think that's a testament to the massive infrastructure work Docker, Inc has done. But it just doesn't make any sense to me

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#508

Post by c-hendricks »

rsyring wrote: post #236
awoimbee wrote: post #220

The main issue is podman support on Ubuntu. Ubuntu ships outdated podman versions that don't work out of the box. So I use podman v5, GitHub actions uses podman v3, and my coworkers on Ubuntu use docker. So now my script must work with old podman, recent podman and docker

Additionally, there aren't even any trusted repos out there building/publishing a .deb for it. The ones that I could find when I searched last were all outdated or indicated they were not going to keep moving forward. I could get over this. But, IMO, it lends itself to asking the "why" question. Why wouldn't Podman make installing it easier? And the only thing that makes sense to me is that RedHat doesn't want their…

Is there something wrong with the version in homebrew?

https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/podman

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#509

Post by sroerick »

throwmeaway222 wrote: post #485
sroerick wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

> I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. > I genuinely don't understand what docker brings to the table. I think you invalidated your own opinion here

Sorry, sir, I didn't realize nobody should ever spend any time learning anything or, failing that, describe what happened to them during that time. I'm no neckbeard savant but I do have a dozen years of deploying web apps and also using Docker during that time, so I think I'm allowed to have an opinion. Go drink some warm milk, you will feel better.
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