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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#501

Post by justusthane »

LocalH wrote: post #458
stretchwithme wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed for the right to other people's money. Government running charity interferes with the normal feedback in society. And the need to ask politely, justify one's apparently bad decisions and change failing behavior. People become "entitled" to regular cash so a lot of the fear that ordinarily motivates the rest of us goes away. Any system that asks nothing of people is a bad system. I grew up on welfare.…

Administration of means testing is often more expensive than doing away with the means testing. How about UBI coupled with repealing the minimum wage?

That’s my soapbox — I think that’s the only feasible hope for the future, taking into account increased efficiency, fewer jobs, and higher corporate profits. UBI funded by higher corporate taxes.

I just don’t see any realistic way to make it actually happen.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#502

Post by jorts »

SpaceManNabs wrote: post #483
klik99 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone brought this up in a previous HN comment section as an example of trust in software ruining peoples lives. But your explanation is far more human and recontextualizes it a bit for me - it just happened to be that this was done with software, but the real motivation was contempt for the lower classes and could have easily have happened 100 years ago with an internal investigation task force. Growing up half in…

> Growing up half in England and US I feel British culture is more attuned to the class aspects to this kind of event. Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist (think of, people on welfare angry at welfare queens, unaware they will be affected by legislation they support). As an immigrant to the US from latin america that has spent significant time in britain, this statement is…

Some high class Brits have been some of the most elitist and entitled people I’ve ever met.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#503

Post by jeremyjh »

Henchman21 wrote: post #468
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist It just manifests as racism.

There’s class contempt too, no one wants to be one of the poors .

There isn't as much contempt for the rich as there should be. The poor despise themselves for being poor, instead of the rich for making them that way.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#504

Post by mparkms »

whycome wrote: post #174
ThisNameIsTaken wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is particularly striking about the scandal is the impact of the mini-series. From what I understand (as a foreigner to the UK) is that it was the mini-series that sparked national interest in the case. Without it, those involved would still be in a bureaucratic and legal nightmare, in which all institutions rejected their innocence claims, and hardly anyone would have been held accountable. See also the "Impact"…

> It leaves me wondering how the situation would have been if it would have been a (dramaturgically) 'bad' series. It might have left those involved even worse of. Holy shit. You might see big corps like the post office fund big dramas as a way to sway public opinion. A tool in the pr playbook.

FIFA tried to make a movie to whitewash their reputation during one of their many corruption scandals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Passions

It didn't work because it was a terrible movie and blatant propaganda, but I could see someone doing this successfully if they were more subtle about it.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#505

Post by MBCook »

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #465
stretchwithme wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed for the right to other people's money. Government running charity interferes with the normal feedback in society. And the need to ask politely, justify one's apparently bad decisions and change failing behavior. People become "entitled" to regular cash so a lot of the fear that ordinarily motivates the rest of us goes away. Any system that asks nothing of people is a bad system. I grew up on welfare.…

I would rather we have a system that is too generous and gets taken advantage of than one that is too parsimonious where people die for want of food and shelter that we could provide for them. We exist in a world where people can be unable to work or even advocate for themselves through no fault of their own. As we raise the bar for how people have to prove that they "need" help, there will be people who die because…

Yep. Better to catch $1m in fraud by spending $20m than to spend $10m helping people with a possibility of $2m in fraud.

It makes no economic sense. It’s not more humane/helpful. But it’s what we ‘choose’ over and over.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#506

Post by wat10000 »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #497
wat10000 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what makes the latter more accurate.

How come?

Because there often is an external attribute, especially if you consider illness to be “external” as is conventional for most deaths caused by illness.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#507

Post by labster »

Henchman21 wrote: post #468
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist It just manifests as racism.

There’s class contempt too, no one wants to be one of the poors .

Wealth is not the same as class, either. Even in America. A teacher with an annual salary of $60k is higher class than a plumber making $100k annually. Unless the teacher is black, of course, then racial elements of class come into play.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#508

Post by 9rx »

ionwake wrote: post #392
horizion2025 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've seen so far suggest they were just ignorant and victims of confirmational bias etc. You can see that when they won some cases they wrote internally something to the effect of "Final we can put to rest all those concerns about these cases blablabla". So it became self-validating. Also the courts and defense lawyers didn't manage to the see the pattern and in the huge numbers of such cases. Each defendant was…

You're probably right—I just wanted to share a few thoughts and would welcome any corrections or clarification. If I were in leadership, I'd assume there are edge cases I'm missing and take responsibility accordingly. Id just assume that is my job, as the leader, that is why I am paid, to make important decisions and stop the company from making big mistakes. This isn’t a critique of your view—just an observation: th…

CEO really is just another job, though. Perhaps you meant to say director? That is where the accountability lies, both practically and legally.

CEO is the top of middle management, but still middle management all the same. The board and owners sit above that position, if you want to picture it as some kind of hierarchy, and are the driving leadership. They call the shots. The CEO has to answer to them.

Perhaps what you are trying to say is that middle management should carry more accountability? But if we were to go down that road, why stop at CEO?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#509

Post by keyserj »

labster wrote: post #507
Henchman21 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s class contempt too, no one wants to be one of the poors .

Wealth is not the same as class, either. Even in America. A teacher with an annual salary of $60k is higher class than a plumber making $100k annually. Unless the teacher is black, of course, then racial elements of class come into play.

I agree that wealth is not the same as class, but just as a counter anecdote, my dad is a (small business) plumber and I never felt like we were treated less than any other middle class family. If anything, it seemed like people were often really grateful and giving random gifts like food from gardens or tickets to local events.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#510

Post by wiether »

trollbridge wrote: post #232
XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

People buy into all kinds of money-losing businesses... Edible Arrangements, Nothing Bundt Cakes, various multi-level marketing type of schemes. And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.

> And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.

That's the same _class_ element that OP was talking about, no?

I guess most of the people on HN don't see issue with people going into debt to get a degree, which is supposed to get them a job.

So how is it different to people going into debt to buy a franchise?

It's even a more straightforward way to actually get a job, while a degree, if it goes out of fashion on the job market, would have absolutely no use, and you'll have to flip the same burgers as the lad with no degree and no student debt.

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