Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#501

Post by Workaccount2 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:46 PM UTC

gilfoy wrote: post #456

Workaccount2 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-android... >“iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove [an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones,” was Federighi’s concern according to the Epic filing. Among other statements. Apple was very aware of the social effects of iMessage, and leveraged it to force people into getting iphones. Tech companies have done lots of evil shit. But…

Your family being willing to isolate you and leave you out of conversations because it would slightly inconvenience them says more about you and them than it does about Apple. I downloaded WhatsApp to include random neighbors in our neighborhood group chat, and your family who has known your forever won’t do the same? Ever thought about why?

Why would I use a random app when I can use my expensive phone's default message program that already does everything?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#502

Post by Workaccount2 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:50 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #218

Workaccount2 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-android... >“iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove [an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones,” was Federighi’s concern according to the Epic filing. Among other statements. Apple was very aware of the social effects of iMessage, and leveraged it to force people into getting iphones. Tech companies have done lots of evil shit. But…

I'm sympathetic to the position that Apple could , if they chose, have made a version of iMessage for Android. But your position that it is somehow uniquely evil just reads as a coping mechanism—a way of not having to blame your friends and family for being shitty for you. I know plenty of "regular, non-tech people" who understand perfectly well that a) different computer systems do not work properly together, and b)…

"Public transit is bad because people like driving cars, it's a social issue, not a business one"

Just think about your logic.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#503

Post by cowl » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:52 PM UTC

piperswe wrote: post #349

lenkite wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win! Also, thinking that all businesses will lock one in using friction and timewasting is not a rational argument. There are a lot of honest businesses there forced to pay the Apple Mafia's tax.

If businesses don't have to offer the more consumer friendly option, they won't offer it.

this is about allowing business to offer other choices, other store rules still would apply. for example if apple would be to require it's option as always present together with the rest in the app, then noone could say anything against it. it's the lack of choice that is the problem not requirements per se.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#504

Post by hk1337 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:55 PM UTC

airstrike wrote: post #495

hk1337 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure it's the best argument but I get what they're saying. The problem is, the argument basically says all free apps are bad, all paid apps are good. The price of an app isn't a good indicator of its intentions.

No, it doesn't say that. It says free apps are not hurt by this as much as paid apps, so charging a percentage fee to maintain the app store disproportionately hurts paid apps.

They should probably reword it so that "free services" and "abuse your privacy" is not so closely linked in that case.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#505

Post by frumplestlatz » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:00 PM UTC

Redoubts wrote: post #28

gregbot wrote: post #11

What remedies is proton mail seeking exactly?

last few pages: https://res.cloudinary.com/dbulfrlrz/images/v1751299117/wp-p... REQUESTED INJUNCTIVE RELIEF To remedy Apple’s unlawful unreasonable restraints of trade, monopolization, attemptedmonopolization, and unfair competition, Plaintiff requests that the Court enter injunctive relief,including but not limited to the following: (a) Enjoin Apple from conditioning any payment, revenue share, or access toany Apple…

> (c) Enjoin Apple from conditioning any payment, revenue share, or access toany Apple product or service on an agreement with an Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM)or carrier not to preinstall an iOS app distribution platform or store other than the Apple AppStore

Let carriers pre-load apps and app stores on Apple's products? That's insane.

> (d) Require Apple to provide rival iOS app stores with access to the App Storecatalog to ensure interoperability and to facilitate consumer choice;

Wait, what? They want access to Apple's App Store catalog? Also never going to happen.

> (g) Require that third-party application developers be given functionality and access to iOS application programming interfaces on terms no worse than the terms Apple allows for its first-party applications;

As sympathetic as I am to this notion, I'm not sure how it's reasonably achievable. Putting aside the burden of every SPI having to be supported, documented, public API, it would also mean opening up all security-sensitive SPI to the world.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#506

Post by cowl » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:00 PM UTC

bitpush wrote: post #292

lenkite wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win! Also, thinking that all businesses will lock one in using friction and timewasting is not a rational argument. There are a lot of honest businesses there forced to pay the Apple Mafia's tax.

Exactly. This is the part that I dont get about Apple apologists. If one really likes paying 30% extra to Apple for privacy/security (debatable, but whatever) nobody is stopping you. But for every one of those, there are many who might want to transact with the business directly. FWIW, I trust Spotify equally as Apple - so if I get a Spotify subscription, I'm more than happy to get a 30% discount and deal with Spotif…

the next response would be "but then i would find myself taking the option that I don't like because the option that I like would put me in a disadvantage so since i can't control my options in order for me to have the best, the other bests should not exist and especially other people can not have better things than what i say is the best because then i would again find myself in choice conflict" Not just apple apologists btw, it's a full category of people who can't enjoy their "choices" without having everyone else have only that "choice"

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#507

Post by superlupo » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:00 PM UTC

litmus-pit-git wrote: post #378

Not related directly and not related to subscription — a recent case of Apple’s anticompetitive and user hostile policies is Apple essentially locking down email push notifications and essentially forcing everyone to use fetch. They had given a way via some signing and now they just shut it down or it broke and they didn’t fix it. Now if every mail provider have their own app then they can circumvent via some shenani…

Do you have more sources on that please? Thanks.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#508

Post by briandw » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:06 PM UTC

matkoniecz wrote: post #329

briandw wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see people making the same arguments about Steam, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc, etc. Why is Apple special here? Other companies make stores that deliver application and developers don't get to tell them what to do. That's fine apparently, just not for Apple.

> I don't see people making the same arguments about Steam, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc, etc. Why is Apple special here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v_European_Com... BTW, I wonder have they paid that €860 million in the end - and how can I check this. > Other companies make stores that deliver application and developers don't get to tell them what to do. AFAIK Microsoft users can install software not…

Not on the Xbox

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#509

Post by rpdillon » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:08 PM UTC

sadeshmukh wrote: post #323

StrandedKitty wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the reason is that the number of Apple users is an order of magnitude higher? Plus, they control both hardware and software. Apple is making very consumer-oriented products, and this comes with it's own downside of having to handle billions of users.

Steam has a near total monopoly on PC gaming and has an equivalent cut.

Rubbish. I literally bought a SteamDeck and installed Heroic on it and installed games from GOG just fine. Valve literally helps me do this by giving me desktop mode. I can't think of any analogy that is farther from Apple's attitude.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#510

Post by parineum » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

hk1337 wrote: post #504

airstrike wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't say that. It says free apps are not hurt by this as much as paid apps, so charging a percentage fee to maintain the app store disproportionately hurts paid apps.

They should probably reword it so that "free services" and "abuse your privacy" is not so closely linked in that case.

It's proton suing. That's their entire case. They are a respecting privacy product that is unduly burdened while privacy abusing products are not. (their argument)