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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#501

Post by chimineycricket »

exodust wrote: post #471
IAmGraydon wrote: post #381

I’m not going to claim a side in this, but I do have a question to pose. When you have two ideologies which are so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot coexist in the same space at the same time, what is the alternative outcome? One must destroy the other for peace to exist - this is the nature of war. To think that there is some world where everyone comes away from this with a handshake and an agreem…

[flagged]

>Israel wouldn't attack Gaza if the terrorists who run that place didn't have a constitutional ambition to destroy Israel.

Really? The > 750,000 Palestinians pushed out of their homes in 1948, when "Israelis" showed up for the first time, backed up by guns, were Hamas? News to me.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#502

Post by [deleted] »

xg15 wrote: post #190
alluro2 wrote: post #177

I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength. When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an e…

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

[deleted]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#503

Post by JumpCrisscross »

pphysch wrote: post #487
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves Including a sizeable Jewish minority. The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region. But it’s a continuation of outsiders (in particular Westerners, though the Iranians also bought this settler-colonialist nonsense which led to their recent miscalculations) with no connectio…

There's plenty of videos of orthodox Jewish people getting brutalized in public by Israeli government thugs. There are many Jewish voices that oppose the genocide. Please don't conflate Judaism with a violent project of political extremism, even though the latter uses the former cynically as a "human shield".

> Please don't conflate Judaism with a violent project of political extremism

I’m not. I’m arguing that one can oppose what’s happening in Gaza without careening into counterproductiveness and calling for the destruction of Israel.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#504

Post by exodust »

rexpop wrote: post #424
IAmGraydon wrote: post #381

I’m not going to claim a side in this, but I do have a question to pose. When you have two ideologies which are so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot coexist in the same space at the same time, what is the alternative outcome? One must destroy the other for peace to exist - this is the nature of war. To think that there is some world where everyone comes away from this with a handshake and an agreem…

> two ideologies which are so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot coexist Ideologies aren't platonic solids. They must be constantly refurbished in the minds of the avowed. Every moment of every day informs them—reinforces or depletes them. Changes their character. It's guaranteed that these minds will, eventually, change. Who survives to bare this change remains to be seen. Keep in mind, also, that…

> "surface patina"

Tell that to the victims of gleeful brutality under the guidance of fundamentalist ideology, like that engrained in Islamist governance and extremist militant groups.

Your post reads like the come-down from intellectual pill-popping. Your attempt to dilute a serious problem in the world to "patinas" and reduce the problem to imperial vs colonized peoples, sounds like a manifesto from the lawns of a university activist encampment.

Consider the framing, you ask. I considered it and reject it, The subjugation of "infidels" under expansionist oppressive religious groups with the intent to bring "peace" is an imperialism all of its own, but much worse. Peace... at the cost of freedom, autonomy, expression, equality.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#505

Post by mhb »

chimineycricket wrote: post #501
exodust wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>Israel wouldn't attack Gaza if the terrorists who run that place didn't have a constitutional ambition to destroy Israel. Really? The > 750,000 Palestinians pushed out of their homes in 1948, when "Israelis" showed up for the first time, backed up by guns, were Hamas? News to me.

History doesn't begin in 1948.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#506

Post by beardedwizard »

keutoi wrote: post #478
beardedwizard wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you actually expecting an average Israeli who does not agree with this to do? This comment strikes me as wild considering the exact same thing is playing out in America right now, and a bunch of people are making up their minds about "Americans" and what they stand for. The same has been true for Iran, only up until now (and probably still) we have always had a more nuanced discussion - its the Iranian gover…

Israel is supposed to be a democratic state. If the average Israeli disagrees with this they can speak up. The only voices we are hearing now are those who support it's current activities. Those who oppose are fewer and quieter.

what evidence do you have to support that claim?

I'm also baffled by the suggestion that democracy truly represents a majority and the apparent belief that dissent is quickly processed and rectified by democracy. Which country do you think shows this is working well?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#507

Post by soraminazuki »

keutoi wrote: post #465
anton-c wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

There is some denial about the crimes committed by Imperial Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_...

That's not representative of the Japanese public opinion at all, so I fail to see how it supports the view that the entire country "hasn't learned anything at all."

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#508

Post by anton-c »

Ray20 wrote: post #466
anton-c wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

>As part of a lesson, they were banned having an army >They have powerful army anyway >Millions of Koreans live in constant fear of the power and brutality of their army Japan obviously learn nothing.

I've been to SK numerous times. The older people dislike Japan A LOT. But their biggest base is a US one. I've never heard fear of the JDF. They have another more problematic neighbor.

The United States - who made the constitution that banned the military - does exercises with and supports the JDF. Idk if that fits unconstitutional anymore.

Their denial of horrid events and their attempts to suppress the fact that comfort women happened is undeniably awful though and shows many did not learn.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#510

Post by anton-c »

keutoi wrote: post #465
anton-c wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

There is some denial about the crimes committed by Imperial Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre_denial https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1gb94m1/why_...

That is awful, I see.
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