FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#501

Post by AIPedant » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #459

AIPedant wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part that makes it not so clear cut is that this is really a constitutional issue rather than a criminal one. It is not credible that the judge was trying to ensure the man could keep living in the US undocumented. She was defending her court. From a judge's POV, arresting a plantiff/defendant in the middle of a trial is a violation of their right to a trial and impedes local prosecutors' abilities to seek justic…

The charges against her are not about her behavior during her court, they're about what happened once the court was adjourned and the defendant was starting to leave. She successfully defended the process within her own courtroom and it's alleged that she went a step further in securing the defendant from their impending arrest on an unrelated charge. There's definitely a conversation to be had about whether people s…

It doesn't matter if court was adjourned, she was still at work and performing her official duties. In particular she asked the ICE agents if they had a judicial warrant and was told no, it was administrative. A federal judicial warrant clearly outranks a local judge and it would be fine to arrest her if she defied it. It is not clear that an order from the executive branch does the same. That doesn't mean local judges are immune from federal prosecution (e.g. corruption charges if someone takes money to rule favorably), but there is a fairly high bar, I don't think her behavior even comes close to probable cause for obstruction of justice or shielding an undocumented immigrant.

The reason every other administration besides Trump refused to go into local courthouses to deport people wasn't about "whether people should be safe from immigration enforcement," it was about separation of powers.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#502

Post by exiguus » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

How often does it happen in the us that a judge get arrested?

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#503

Post by surfaceofthesun » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

_mlbt wrote: post #37

whoknowsidont wrote: post #12

Democratic states really need to start disallowing federal agents to operate within their borders and band together. Activate their respective national guards and make it happen. Yes, that means defying federal law. Yes that means exactly the consequences you want to draw from those actions. There is no other option at this point. The law is dead in the U.S.

Why are deportations of illegal immigrants bad? Come here legally and be properly vetted. The law is dead if states defy it by refusing to allow federal agents to enforce immigration law. This whole stance is absolute madness.

This is a perfectly reasonable response during normal presidential administrations. However, this administration is credibly[1] accused of avoiding due process via the current deportation process.

I'll include a quote from the (9-0!) April 10th Supreme Court ruling[1] concerning the removal of Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia from the United States to El Salvador.

> The Government’s argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U. S. citizens, without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene.

Without a chance to demonstrate that someone is in the US legally (i.e., Due Process), the defense of this action can be that it's necessary to prevent the rendition of US citizens to El Salvador or elsewhere. That might sound crazy, but we already have an example of a US citizen being held in custody per an ICE request, despite having proof of being born in the US[2]. If both practices continue, we'll ultimately see the intersection at some point.

--- [1] -- https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf

[2] -- https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/a-u-s-citizen-was-held...

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#504

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:58 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #411

whoknowsidont wrote: post #12

Democratic states really need to start disallowing federal agents to operate within their borders and band together. Activate their respective national guards and make it happen. Yes, that means defying federal law. Yes that means exactly the consequences you want to draw from those actions. There is no other option at this point. The law is dead in the U.S.

Every public official in every state has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. Willfully ignoring that oath whenever it suits them is not a faithful commission of their duties. While trampling on civil rights is a problem so is harboring known, convicted felons. If Wisteguens Charles had been deported in 2022, some of his future crimes wouldn't have happened. Instead we have people falling over themselves to have…

[deleted]

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#505

Post by prepend » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:58 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #409

kansface wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, absolutely not. Trump would federalize the national guard as did Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson and charge the governors with treason. You advocate for de facto succession of the states - we settled that matter with blood last time. The next time will be far worse. The rule of law does not prohibit bad arrests nor can it. The rule of law provides the opportunity for remedy after the fact.

When the federal government is actively hostile towards the states then the only recourse is going to be secession. > The rule of law does not prohibit bad arrests nor can it. The rule of law provides the opportunity for remedy after the fact. In a world where you and I could be renditioned to a foreign country and thrown into slave labor by the government simply acting fast enough as to maneuver around the court the…

That’s not really a viable recourse as it will result in that state being force ably retained in the union.

I think a better remedy is to work within the laws of the country and to elect different federal representatives (president, senator, house representatives).

Secession would definitely be worse for any state attempting it.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#506

Post by SimbaOnSteroids » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

bdelmas wrote: post #484

kstrauser wrote: post #406

Part of the reason why I support "sanctuary cities" is that it's better for everyone if undocumented immigrants feel safe talking to the police. Imagine someone broke into my car and there was a witness who saw the whole thing. I want them to be OK telling the cops what happened. I want them to be OK reporting crimes in their neighborhood. I want them to be OK testifying about it in court. I want them to be OK callin…

I am going to be downvoted to oblivion but sanctuary cities for what you are saying is like a monkey patch in code. It "works" for now but it's not a long-term viable solution. A person breaking the law and be fine to be a criminal to be in a country is already the wrong mindset. And these persons are only at step 1 in a life in the US. What happens when life will be tough later are they now magically going to stop a…

Calling it a crime vastly overstates what the offense is. Entering in the country illegally is a misdemeanor, when you call them criminals you rhetorically frame it as a serious offense like a felony. Its disingenuous.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#507

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 6:00 PM UTC

exe34 wrote: post #497

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's just how the militia types tend to lean So far. I don’t think you’d have trouble recruiting an educated, well-regulated militia from folks who believe in the rule of law.

you'd be declared an illegal immigrant and removed to hotel salvador pretty quickly at this point. The orangefuhrer has already said he's coming after the "homegrown" next.

[deleted]

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#508

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 6:01 PM UTC

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #487

tintor wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

In an ideal world, maybe that's how it would work. In reality, that's not how it works or likely ever will work. So the comment you're replying to is a pragmatic approach to "how do we make the world we actually live in, not some idealized fantasy, safer?"

[deleted]

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#509

Post by ldoughty » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 6:01 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #357

ldoughty wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the FBI complaint that was just made available: Judge Dugan escorted the subject through a "jurors door" to private hallways and exits instead of having the defendant leave via the main doors into the public hallway, where she visually confirmed the agents were waiting for him. I couldn't tell if the judge knew for certain that ICE was only permitted to detain the defendant in 'public spaces' or not. Reg…

If this is all true, it still requires the judge be under some legal order to facilitate the deportation -- unless they have a warrant of the relevant type, the judge is under no such obligation. With a standard (administrative) warrant, ICE have no authority to demand the arrest.

The violation is not that the judge _did not assist_, but that the judge took additional actions to ensure the defendant could access restricted areas they otherwise would have no right to be in so that they could get out of the building unseen.

The judge was aware of the warrant and ensured the defendant remained in private areas so they could get out of the building.

The FBI's argument is that her actions were unusual (a defendant being allowed into juror's corridors is highly unusual) and were only being taken explicitly to assist in evading ICE.

As we've heard from many lawyers recently regarding ICE... You are not required to participate and assist. However, you can't take additional actions to directly interfere. Even loudly shouting "WHY IS ICE HERE?" is dangerous (you probably should shout a more generic police concern, like 'hey, police, is there a criminal nearby? should i hide?'

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#510

Post by Gabriel54 » Fri, Apr 25, 2025, 6:02 PM UTC

gortok wrote: post #488

Gabriel54 wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the purpose of laws if they are willfully ignored? Where do you draw the line? If the police don't care about someone's immigration status, why should they care about who broke into your car?

This over-simplifies our federal system to the point of uselessness. The Federal Government is responsible for immigration. It's their job to set policies and adjudicate immigration issues. Local and State Law Enforcement are not responsible for -- and indeed it is outside of their powers to enforce immigration laws. Supreme Court precedent is that states cannot be compelled by Congress to enforce Immigration law (se…

> Supreme Court precedent is that states cannot be compelled by Congress to enforce Immigration law (see: Printz v. United States).

So the supreme court struck a reasonable compromise between federal and state interests. I am not a lawyer, but I am certain that this precedent does not give states the right to actively obstruct federal agents from doing their job, that is, to enforce federal immigration law.