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The Frontend Treadmill

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Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#501

Post by acemarke »

pookha wrote: post #228
mablopoule wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a Javascript problem in the sense that it's due to intrinsics properties of Front-end developpement, or of NPM, but I do agree that's in a cultural problem in the Javascript ecosystem, especially around React. My theory is that there was a perfect storm around 2015 where everyone and their dog was encouraged to learn to code, especially by going through a coding bootcamp where they were mainly taug…

LOL 2015 was a banner year for the trendy web-dev influencers...I can remember junior developers tripping over themselves trying to implement "flux" to handle some form input. Needlessly complex bullshit libraries got forced down everyone's throat because AngularJS was passe and React was "very mindful, very demure". Eventually flux became "redux", which I gather was a "state management" framework that ripped off a p…

FWIW, I'm the current Redux maintainer, and that is an absolutely horrible and unfair description of how Redux was created.

Elm was _an_ influence on Redux, but there were many other influences as well. Dan Abramov's prior experience did include some VB (possibly VB.NET, I think), but also a lot of actual JS.

See the actual "History of Redux" and "Prior Art" docs pages, and a couple of my blog posts, for an accurate description of the influences that led to Redux's creation:

- https://redux.js.org/understanding/history-and-design/histor...

- https://redux.js.org/understanding/history-and-design/prior-...

- https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2017/05/idiomatic-redux-ta...

https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2017/05/idiomatic-redux-ta...

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#502

Post by kamaal »

mplanchard wrote: post #2

I have recently been doing some upgrades to the build system for our FE code to swap out yarn for pnpm. I’m normally a backend engineer, but I’ve spent plenty of time in the JS mines. The most frustrating thing about dipping in to the FE is that it seems like literally everything is deprecated . Oh, you used the apollo CLI in 2022? Bam, deprecated, go learn how to use graphql-client or whatever, which has a totally d…

>>The most frustrating thing about dipping in to the FE is that it seems like literally everything is deprecated.

I build a lot of FE stuff for internal company tooling. Production, monitoring, dashboards etc.

Its crazy how the React ecosystem works. Like you can come back after two years to add a feature and realise you now face weeks/months of migrations tasks before you even begin to add the features.

I always compare this to something like say Java. Imagine if Java deprecated and broke everything every 2 years or so. Imagine the omni present migrations projects in the backend.

Sometimes I think this is why banks, and other places that need long term stability are still on php+jquery+LAMP stack.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#503

Post by cratermoon »

GitPushOrigin wrote: post #297
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't think these front end influencers are even coding very much. Like if you hired them on a job on a serious team, they would probably come off like a junior engineer

I get that same vibe. It seems like their intent is to "wow" others into thinking how easy it is to become a developer and build an app with X framework. When in reality they just built a todo app that barely resembles how real software is built.

The #1 tell is that all their projects are solo. Working on a team, working with peers, building software systems the live in production for years, through change and expansion, all seem beyond the typical influencer.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#504

Post by skgough »

areoform wrote: post #487
poncho_romero wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDN has exactly those kinds of tutorials and walk throughs! It’s not all API documentation

Which ones? Could you link to them?

HTML: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...

CSS: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...

JS: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...

They even have courses for frameworks.

React: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...

Svelte: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...

Vue: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#506

Post by brightball »

mplanchard wrote: post #2

I have recently been doing some upgrades to the build system for our FE code to swap out yarn for pnpm. I’m normally a backend engineer, but I’ve spent plenty of time in the JS mines. The most frustrating thing about dipping in to the FE is that it seems like literally everything is deprecated . Oh, you used the apollo CLI in 2022? Bam, deprecated, go learn how to use graphql-client or whatever, which has a totally d…

This experience is one of the reasons people love Phoenix LiveView so much.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#507

Post by acjohnson55 »

Illniyar wrote: post #313

I love it when people phrase this as a frontend problem. It's not a frontend problem. It's just a "it's a huge ecosystem with new players" problem. I've seen this in Java 15 years ago when it was the front of innovation (I can name dozens of frameworks, and a half dozen build systems coming out in as many years). React 17-18 is quite a minor change then perl 5->6 or python 2->3 For backend instead of "let's use this…

Scala, in and of itself, would have entire revolutions every year.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#508

Post by stickfigure »

liminal wrote: post #117

We're trying to hire an Angular design engineer, so now the recruiter is the person trying to get management to switch to React to make his search easier. The tech doesn't matter too much, but the market forces do.

Management should not be listening to technology advice from recruiters.

Re: The Frontend Treadmill

#509

Post by DidYaWipe »

tylerchurch wrote: post #493
DidYaWipe wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of reference in these comments to "core" or basic Web technologies. What would you say they are? What's the highest-level thing that's still "core?"

I always interpret “core” as “no libraries”. What can you do with just your browser and an HTML file? Poke through MDN and see what you find. Do you know about dialog? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/di... MutationObserver? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/MutationObs... URL? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/URL_API

Thanks! I looked at MutationObserver and wondered about the example:

    if (mutation.type === "childList") {
      console.log("A child node has been added or removed.");
How can such changes occur to the DOM that aren't brought about by other code on the page? And if other code on the page brought them about, why didn't it also perform whatever the MutationObserver is doing?

Anyway, not to get too mired in details... I've done no front-end dev, but I'm building a mobile app that'll need administrative pages for me (or, hopefully, other staff) to use. Is there a "next-level up" front-end layer that provides convenience functions but still isn't a bloated framework liable to be obsolete?

I like to hand-roll stuff from the basics, by all means, but I already have my hands full with a back end and a client application.

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