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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#501

Post by nathants »

bitsandboots wrote: post #486
nathants wrote: post #236

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

Hey man I just play games to have fun. I guess fun isn't for everyone.

outlandish. i will get laws passed that require you to play and enjoy my game. how dare you, sir.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#502

Post by hx8 »

parl_match wrote: post #410
soderfoo wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Rockstar really should’ve made this a separate launch option like other games do) This is what happens when a producer's/product manager's cherished KPIs come before UX. In their mind, adding a toggle in the launcher would lead to lower engagement and player acquisition. We, the players, fail to recognize how our gaming experience can be enhanced by using social features like leader boards, guilds, or in game chat…

> This is what happens when a producer's/product manager's cherished KPIs come before UX. > In their mind, adding a toggle in the launcher would lead to lower engagement and player acquisition. Not "in their mind". It does and they have the data to show it. Very frustrating situation.

People cannot say no if you never ask for informed consent. If the PC is personal then a root kit is a violation.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#503

Post by nathants »

CursedUrn wrote: post #490
nathants wrote: post #236

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

Making a webcam work on every hardware configuration is very difficult. I don't think this is possible.

really? usb webcams? i suppose it’s possible, but this seems unlikely.

very well, ranked will then require specific hardware. i’m gonna have to build more test pcs. 9800x3d 7700xt b650m looking pretty clean.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#504

Post by billyoyo »

umvi wrote: post #233
billyoyo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a naive take. Of course these developers already permaban cheaters. Firstly many of these games are free to play so "getting another license" is a non issue. They're doing hardware bans nowadays which are harder to avoid but not impossible. Half the battle is detection though. If you don't detect cheaters quick enough they ruin enough games that genuine players start getting frustrated and leave. Anti cheats…

It's not possible to completely solve this problem with technology. High level chess players (GMs) can win with just a few bits of information transmitted to them by a cheating accomplice (a cough if it's a critical position to spend extra time on, etc). Similarly, high level gamers only need the slightest of edges to win, and therefore only need the slightest of cheating. That's why I think trusted user bases are th…

That's just elitist though isn't it? These games are enjoyed by players from all over the world, including massive numbers of players in countries with far less average disposable income. Its common in many countries to go to an internet cafe to play these games as they don't own their own hardware even.

It would also massively reduce the number of players. Competitive multiplayer games rely on large active playerbases for fast and fair matchmaking. That's why free to play has become the dominant model for these games. If you have to pay $1000 to play one of these games, they have no chance vs. the competition.

Obviously you can't completely solve this problem, but you can minimize it as much as possible.

Also these sorts of "trusted clubs" do exist for certain games (e.g. FaceIt for CounterStrike) but ultimately it still just relies on anti-cheat to establish that trust.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#505

Post by Hikikomori »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #237
kelnos wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bizarre take. If people consent to installing these invasive anti-cheat systems, then it doesn't matter if anyone has a "right" to a business model or not; in that case their business model is working . > They can do plenty enough server-side. No, they can't. The amount of responses in these threads by people who have no idea what they're talking about is... well, probably not surprising, unfortunately. This i…

The bizarre take is granting a shred of validity to anyone who says "I need the keys to your house and bank account and a webcam in your bath room to protect the marketable value of my game service so that other platers will rent server access from me."

Not all types of games require this kind of anticheat. But this competitive type like CS/Valorant/MOBA games that use skill based matchmaking and rankings does require something that approaches fair play to even work as a produc. So the user must make some sacrifices to get there due how open and easy it is to manipulate things on x86/Windows for the PCs administrator.

Would it be reasonable to only sell this kind of game on console like hardware? Sure, but people have and use PCs and will have to make this choice themselves. And its not like user space software is not bad for privacy as any process your user runs can read all your files and even memory of other processes.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#506

Post by fluoridation »

keyringlight wrote: post #498
remnantdiving wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patched: https://hackerone.com/reports/470520 https://hackerone.com/reports/1070835 https://secret.club/2021/04/20/source-engine-rce-invite.html https://secret.club/2020/10/30/alien-swarm-rce.html https://threatpost.com/dark-souls-servers-down-rce-bug/17789... https://blog.thalium.re/posts/achieving-remote-code-executio... https://www.pcgamer.com/garrys-mod-cough-virus-is-cured-but-... you can buy these games in thei…

I've been wondering is how long before we get a 'PC-console' dedicated gaming device, there's certain aspects where PC is falling into the gravity well of the console model. Whether that's the technical aspects like how far you can lock down for security (and who's security) or DRM, whether people only want a nice front end, whether everything should be managed by a defacto 'good' platform holder versus allowing comp…

Speaking for myself, I would never buy such a thing. The reason I game on PC is because I need a decent PC for work anyway, so building one that can also game is cheaper than buying a console.

If I was really concerned about security I'd sooner dual boot into a second OS that had nothing on it, than buy a second box just to game on.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#507

Post by Hikikomori »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #341
babypuncher wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a game is overrun with cheaters, people will not play it. You're basically arguing that whole genres of games should cease to exist.

I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying that that wrong is no excuse for the other wrong. There are infinite ways to attack any problem, and it's not a requirement but a choice to persue only certain ideas vs others. For instance, these approaches are based on removing agency from all users for the supposed goal of dealing with the bad users. But there is no law of physics that says that is the only way to do that. You…

We have a working solution that some games still use, dedicated servers with admins that can investigate and ban people themselves. Has its own suite of problems but it works well against cheaters.

But skill based matchmaking type games where you're matched with random people is fundamentally incompatible with this model, that is why the person you responded to you said that you're suggesting that these games should cease to exist.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#508

Post by Hikikomori »

fireant wrote: post #335
sadeshmukh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't server-side anticheat a possible solution? Cheats can spoof inputs purely through visual output as well, meaning there cannot be full trust client-side.

We're mostly talking about FPS here, you've got 2 main cheat categories: aimbots and esps (visibility hacks) Esps are purely client side, they read actors from game's memory and draw a client side overlay. It's impossible to protect against these on the server. Even if you had perfect culling from the server (didn't send players behind walls for example) you'd still have semitransparent surfaces like foliage and smok…

Just adding that occlusion only works with games that have simple geometry, 90 degree corners, straight corridors, enclosed areas and no large difference in elevation. So its useful in games like CS or Valorant, but will not work well in open games like Battlefield or Escape from Tarkov.

There's also DMA based cheats that will read memory with another computer which can then output an ESP overlay to a HDMI or DP merge box that will show both the game and overlay on your monitor. They can also do aimbot by adding mouse inputs to a device you connect your mouse.

Websites sell DMA cards and these other devices together.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#509

Post by nithssh »

ixwt wrote: post #496
nithssh wrote: post #493

Makes sense considering Valve has maintained that kernel level AC is not required and has not included one in their own games, but let's be honest, unfortunately you have to often wonder if your enemy is having a good day or if he's hacking in CS but not so in valorant for a reason.

I'm also hearing a bunch of grumblings and speculation that Valve is developing a non kernel level anti cheat.

They have VAC and the newer version that they promised would save CS2 hasn't exactly changed much from CSGO days in terms of results.

I would love for Valve to prove it is possible but so far they haven't shown it can be done without leaving a bad experience for legit players (due to delayed ban waves, etc) despite the repeated claims.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#510

Post by tantalor »

veunes wrote: post #382
yreg wrote: post #195

I've just reinstalled GTA V last week and I was very surprised to find out that I now have to install a rootkit to run it. They had the balls to add a mandatory kernel extension into a game that I've bought 10 years ago and that I wish to play in single player only. I find it utterly ridiculous. As usual, piracy would have been the superior experience.

Piracy shouldn’t feel like the "premium version" of a product...

This is true for watching NFL.

Option 1: subscribe to 7 streaming services which each have some unpredictable subset of games

Option 2: go to some website that has all the games

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