Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence • Hacker News Board

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#501

Post by seec » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:11 AM UTC

mystified5016 wrote: post #460

calderarrow wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be, for most of the same reasons as you. What ultimately convinced me was realizing that our judicial system can never be 100% perfect, so we would always have a non-zero number of innocent people executed as long as capital punishment is on the table. To me, I think the cost of keeping people incarcerated is worth the cost of accidentally executing innocent citizens. Put a bit more personally: would you su…

Another way to frame it: Assume the justice system is perfect and only guilty people are executed. However, by law for every five or ten guilty executions, a random innocent civilian is also executed. That system is obviously abhorrent and unjust. However, that's how the system works right now . For every N truly guilty people executed, there's a truly innocent person executed. The only difference is we justify it by…

So, it's better to potentially completely ruin the life of an innocent instead of killing him. From a humanity standpoint the first option is much more barbaric.

Besides, what is the chance an innocent gets out if he was convicted in the first place?

I believe it's so low that the mistake is not giving a decent out (and avoiding large costs to society) to problematic peoples on the off chance that you might get an innocent released 10 years earlier. If he was truly innocent, his life is ruined already, he would have to live with the consequences for the rest of his life...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#502

Post by seec » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:30 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #441

diogenes_atx wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was unable to find a "letter" from Missouri Governor Michael Parson about this case, but there is a press release from the Office of the Governor (url copied below). Here are some of the highlights of the Governor's statement to the press: The Governor's Office offers the following summary of the crime: "Marcellus Williams murdered Felicia Gayle on August 11, 1998. He burglarized Ms. Gayle’s home, ambushed her as s…

DNA evidence is notoriously iffy. I would not convict / not convict someone based purely on that. There's so many confounding factors. No one knows whose DNA was left. There's no way to know any DNA is 'the killers'. For all we know Gayle was having an affair. That doesn't explain the hard facts of why her stuff ended up in his car and she died in a manner that fits Williams' previous violent attacks. Look... obvious…

It's insane the amount of bullshit people will pille up to defend a man who, even if he was innocent on this case, was clearly a criminal with antecedents and no sign of working on a better life.

Even if he was innocent in this particular case, society just got rid of problematic and disruptive individual that clearly had no will to behave in society.

In any way you put it, it's actually a very positive outcome for everyone but yet we get all this nonsense. And let's be real, the chance he was actually innocent is so slim it's a complete waste of time trying to do that.

If we were talking about an upstanding citizen with a good life and a lot to lose, yes, it would smell fishy and would need a lot of consideration/better evidence; but this is not the case at all, even if there was a mistake it is a rather small mistake everything considered.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#503

Post by seec » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:42 AM UTC

noworriesnate wrote: post #425

ossyrial wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's really no such thing. Which, in my opinion, is a fantastic argument against the death penalty. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf

I once met a man who told me he had killed his neighbor once. Here's the story: His neighbor was a kleptomaniac. He constantly broke in and stole stuff from the man I was talking to. The man I was talking to constantly reported it to the police, who said they could do nothing unless the man broke in. The man I was talking to eventually caught the thief breaking in, at which point he held him at gunpoint until the pol…

Well yeah, the problem with modern justice is that it doesn't really work. It's a tool for use by the powerful, besides that for common people there is no real justice.

I once got a lot of stuff stolen from me; long story but I could identify the perpetrators with 100% confidence. At the police station they showed me quite a lot of grids of photo mugshots, unsurprisingly I found the thieves. But then the officer told me that one of them had been caught 17 times, and yet here he was, still stealing stuff. I was asked to be a witness to make a case, I refused because clearly justice wasn't working at all so what's the point?

I am pretty sure that this person will continue his ways until he dies but society is unwilling to recognize this reality and "justice" is those kinds of people getting a free pass at the expense of law-abiding citizens.

Meanwhile if you are caught driving too fast you will get an insane fee, car seized, and permit revoked. "Justice" is very nice to criminal, but always hard on weak people who have no choice, funny thing that we call it justice.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#504

Post by gen220 » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 6:49 PM UTC

mrangle wrote: post #499

gen220 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christ gave commandments that superseded the Mosaic law. He explicitly forbade violence in all forms, with no exceptions for retaliation. And he went further to say you should respond to violence with nonviolent love and submission. Christ would not endorse capital punishment of Bundy, soldiers in any army, or “stand your ground” style killings.

That's false on all counts. You're engaging in incorrect conjecture in regard to what he stated. Further, what Christ "would not endorse" is your conjecture and not fact. Christianity is not about allowing society be destroyed by its internal enemies such as criminals and their syndicates, nor about blanket injustice for victims, nor about allowing foreign armies to overtake it (often destroying Christianity). How ri…

That institutions who purport themselves to be Christian support violence does not change what Christ himself taught.

I interpret Christianity to be following the teachings of Christ, rather than following post-Christ dogma that is frequently in open contradictions to Christ's teachings.

I encourage you to (re-)read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7, particularly relevant to violence are verses 38-48) and reflect on how those words might be compatible with state-sanctioned violence of any form?

I agree with you that this interpretation is historically one that has been fringe since the Council of Nicaea. That does not mean that it is incorrect.

Do you think Christ, who commanded "Do not swear an oath", "Do not resist an evil person", and "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (the word for 'enemy' here carried a nationalistic tone), would endorse any of the earlier-quoted uses of violence?

As someone who is very comfortable professing Christian ideas, I don't understand how you could present his commandments as anti-Christian. It is literally how he tells us to live.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#505

Post by vanattab » Sun, Sep 29, 2024, 5:03 AM UTC

seec wrote: post #501

mystified5016 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to frame it: Assume the justice system is perfect and only guilty people are executed. However, by law for every five or ten guilty executions, a random innocent civilian is also executed. That system is obviously abhorrent and unjust. However, that's how the system works right now . For every N truly guilty people executed, there's a truly innocent person executed. The only difference is we justify it by…

So, it's better to potentially completely ruin the life of an innocent instead of killing him. From a humanity standpoint the first option is much more barbaric. Besides, what is the chance an innocent gets out if he was convicted in the first place? I believe it's so low that the mistake is not giving a decent out (and avoiding large costs to society) to problematic peoples on the off chance that you might get an in…

>So, it's better to potentially completely ruin the life of an innocent instead of killing him.

Yes clearly it's better. Killing him definitely ruins his life as well and isn't reversible.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#506

Post by karpatic » Sun, Sep 29, 2024, 3:35 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #493

karpatic wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiming in like this makes me wounder what your view on abortion is. I'm not asking, though.

I'm not really sure if I follow how that relates? I'm just saying that "X is legal" is not really a good counter to "X is not moral", which of course also applies in the reverse. Legality and morality are just not the same thing.

Oh lol. I was being serious. Been thinking about the nuances of it recently and I felt it kinda resides within that framework. Wasn't meant to be snide but also this threads not the place for it.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#507

Post by foxyv » Sun, Sep 29, 2024, 4:23 PM UTC

infamouscow wrote: post #496

foxyv wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that false convictions were rare. In capital cases like this one it is close to 4%! That made me think, is it worth killing 4 innocent people to avoid having to imprison 96 guilty ones for the rest of their life? If I went out with a gun and killed 100 people, 4 innocent and 96 justifiably, I may as well be number 97.

I'm curious what percentage of false convictions are caused by LEO and DA omitting or destroying evidence. I suspect, ignorantly, that it's north of 70%. If anyone should be getting the death penalty, it should be those that abuse power granted to them by the people.

I guess false confessions are a huge issue. In addition, our system is mostly designed to around the needs of the rich and corporate interests. Prosecution for crimes against the poor and disenfranchised is critically underfunded. Public defenders offices are even worse off.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#508

Post by ImJamal » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 2:26 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #379

ImJamal wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He openly admitted to multiple people he killed her and had her property in his possession. Do you think that it was impossible to have burden of proof prior to DNA or something? Who admits to killing somebody while having their property in their possession if they didn't do it? The average person would probably accept just admitting it multiple times to be beyond a reasonable doubt, but adding on the possession of t…

He allegedly admitted. To paid snitches. Who were also known liars and criminals.

His girlfriend apparently did not ask for any money so she was a paid snitch though?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#509

Post by ImJamal » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 2:30 PM UTC

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #320

ImJamal wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He openly admitted to multiple people he killed her and had her property in his possession. Do you think that it was impossible to have burden of proof prior to DNA or something? Who admits to killing somebody while having their property in their possession if they didn't do it? The average person would probably accept just admitting it multiple times to be beyond a reasonable doubt, but adding on the possession of t…

No, some witnesses testified that he allegedly confessed. This is called hearsay. There is an exception to hearsay when it comes to confessions and that's the reason the testimony was admitted during the trial. A hearsay confession is very different than a confession made to the public, the police, the prosecutor, in court or during a deposition. The witnesses received benefits from their testimonies and this again l…

The girlfriend heard it directly from the accused and testified to that fact. It wasn't hearsay. Despite claims to the contrary, she didn't request any money for the testimony.

Why do people keep ignoring the girlfriend's testimony?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#510

Post by l0t0b0r0s » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 3:58 PM UTC

jstummbillig wrote: post #35

> “The family defines closure as Marcellus being allowed to live,” the petition stated. “Marcellus’ execution is not necessary.” Imagine we lived in that world.

In a world with more murderers alive? no thanks.