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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird to see such a strongly held belief of not blaming people abandoned so quickly. It's pretty standard to blame the pilots, as we know there is a Swiss cheese model for statistical analysis of risk and from my vantage point opening such large holes in the MCAS layer with the expectation that events are caught at the pilot layer is inadequate. That not all events are caught at the pilot layer is to be expected. Edi…

Finding the source of the error is not the same thing as meting out punishment. I am not aware of any pilot being criminally charged for making a terrible mistake. Though their careers are usually ended by it. That seems fair to me. An engineer at Boeing who could not be relied on will also find his career shunted to working on non-critical stuff. That's fair as well. > That not all events are caught at the pilot lay…

Dying in plane crashes and having their license revoked are pretty severe punishments, perhaps if management could similarly have their license to practice management revoked we could consider that somehow equivalent. I'm sure many people would prefer prison time to dying in a plane crash or having their career destroyed.

I don't trust Boeing and haven't for several decades so while I agree in theory an automated system could fly aircraft with a great deal of reliability I do not trust Boeing to be able to deliver that reliability. I like the idea that someone educated in the safety of the aircraft is up in the airplane with me sharing in the risk of flying even if all they are doing is babysitting a computerized system.

Most of my knowledge of Boeing is from engineers that used to work there and complained bitterly about the degradation of engineering safety culture. And sure, perhaps flying is safer than it has ever been, I think that's more down to improvements in technology than the culture of safety. Unfortunately while technology generally improves it's hard to say the same thing about culture. In general I'm upset that flying is less safe than it could have been.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#502
post #479
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in the "corporations as people" x "criminal justice system" vein, I would be in favor of moving towards a standard where, if a person convicted of the same crime would receive a prison sentence, a company should be forced to cease operations for an equivalent period, and put all its assets into frozen fund which can only be used to pay out debts/obligations, and which earns no interest.

Garnish valuation increase and dividends for X years, just like wage garnishing. At the end of every quarter, if the market cap of the company has increased by $X b/million, $X b/million has to be paid as a fine to the government. This means that effectively the share price cannot increase during the period, only go down. Of course, this needs to be done retroactively, starting from the time the illegal act is believ…

This idea would kill all capital investment in the country. A country without capital investment is a country in which you will not enjoy the standard of living.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shutting down a company results in people losing their jobs. And ending murder and child victims results in people (investigators, litigators, counselors) losing their jobs. Should we stop trying to solve these problems too?

Once again, what I'm saying is "people losing their jobs is a consequence of shutting down a business" is not "economic terrorism".

When the people who run those business factor this exact thing into their decision making, then yes, it's precisely that. You're acting as if the company is somehow entirely detached from these circumstances or that this all happened to them by accident.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#504
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people seem to have a very romantic notion that there is some meeting where all the engineers get together and decide whether or not they are going to kill their users or not.

Not to "kill their users" but they realistically have meeting to vote on whether the system is "go/nogo". This is the basic structure of many aerospace designs. If you ever watch a rocket launch, they are literally checking in with every system owner for that decision. Prior to even getting to the launch date, there are meetings where they are checking with the designers for similar decisions. There are good document…

Wait, what? I'm sure here we can relate to the software side of things. How many times have you been in a position of saying "go/nogo" where saying "nogo" didn't imply it would also be your last day on the job? (or at least a severe Career Limiting Move)

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding the source of the error is not the same thing as meting out punishment. I am not aware of any pilot being criminally charged for making a terrible mistake. Though their careers are usually ended by it. That seems fair to me. An engineer at Boeing who could not be relied on will also find his career shunted to working on non-critical stuff. That's fair as well. > That not all events are caught at the pilot lay…

Dying in plane crashes and having their license revoked are pretty severe punishments, perhaps if management could similarly have their license to practice management revoked we could consider that somehow equivalent. I'm sure many people would prefer prison time to dying in a plane crash or having their career destroyed. I don't trust Boeing and haven't for several decades so while I agree in theory an automated sys…

> Dying in plane crashes and having their license revoked are pretty severe punishments

Neither are punishments. If you stab yourself that's your own doing, not punishment. Removing someone from a position where they cannot be trusted is not a punishment.

Airbus has had problems with their automation systems, too, that the pilots were able to save. And crashes where the pilots forgot how to recover from a stall.

Nobody is saying safety cannot still be improved. Every accident gets thoroughly investigated, and all contributing causes to the accident get dealt with.

Whipping people is not going to improve matters.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#506
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to "kill their users" but they realistically have meeting to vote on whether the system is "go/nogo". This is the basic structure of many aerospace designs. If you ever watch a rocket launch, they are literally checking in with every system owner for that decision. Prior to even getting to the launch date, there are meetings where they are checking with the designers for similar decisions. There are good document…

Wait, what? I'm sure here we can relate to the software side of things. How many times have you been in a position of saying "go/nogo" where saying "nogo" didn't imply it would also be your last day on the job? (or at least a severe Career Limiting Move)

For a relatively brief period, I worked as a software quality engineer related to aerospace research and development. Practically every test that used software required a “go/nogo” decision before they were allowed to run any safety critical test. The safety chief would give the overall “go-nogo” decision but the subsystems (like software safety) would require “go-nogo” decisions to be fed through the chief.

As I’ve said elsewhere, good organizations implement a distinct chain of command for those decisions so they can be made more impartially. Even then, it’s not without career risk, but IMO that’s part of the gig and why it takes a certain amount of professional integrity. As someone else said, if someone isn’t up to that task, maybe developing safety critical software isn’t the right gig for them.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A systemic failure doesn't necessarily mean that people should go to jail; Kareem lied about the price of bonds and deserved jail time.

Everyone lied about the price of bonds, that's why our major investment banks still exist (though, I suppose CS doesn't at this point; that's another story).

What is your point? (1) That others should have gone to jail too, or that (2) Kareem was only doing what everyone else was doing?

For (1), were other people prosecuted? Maybe there was insufficient evidence or process issues that got in the way of additional convictions.

For (2), how does that excuse a crime?

Kareem's story is fascinating for many reasons and I don't find lying about bond prices to be a crime to hate someone over. But, a crime it is, nonetheless.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just send a lot of people to jail. One of the problems here is that a lot of the time, the worst thing that happens to an individual from the company is just that they get fired. That's just not a very strong deterrent when the upside if you don't get caught is potentially huge raises/promotions/bonuses. Imagine if the worst thing that could happen to you when robbing banks if you get caught is just th…

Proving something like criminal negligence is extremely hard. The supply chain of software in aerospace is extremely long and finding out who exactly was acting negligent is near impossible.

Change the law so that design flaws arising from a culture/system that deprioritizes safety are considered criminally negligent for upper management (at least for safety critical domains like aircraft or cars).

Then you just have to prove that they intentionally deprioritized safety/engineering in their systems and culture.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#510
post #20

Plea deals rob victims from the truth they need for closure and recovery. On top of that, plea deals also undermine public trust in the rule of law. I wonder how "happy" the Judge is for being forced to give it credibility...

The criminal justice system doesn't exist to emotionally satisfy the victims.

Well, it sure as heck doesn’t exist to uncover the truth, so what does it do?
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