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Are animals conscious? New research

bbc.com

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#501

Post by naikrovek »

King-Aaron wrote: post #264
tuatoru wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do animals have friends, enemies, cliques? Yes. Do animals play practical jokes on each other? Yes. I've seen all of these in cows.

Cows are just big dogs

big, curious dogs, sorta like cats. they want to know what you're doing when they see you and they want to smell everything you're doing and they want to play all the damn time.

I did IT work on a farm for a few weeks and was there 3-5 days a week. The cows were far more active than any other animal I saw. They clearly liked each other and had friends and non-friends in the group. They would run and walk dozens and dozens of miles per day and a horse would move 1/4 mile in total over the course of an entire day.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#502

Post by HelloMcFly »

gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #455
ysavir wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think most animals are conscious but a qualitative distinction between humans and animals is very reasonable. Animals didn't land on the moon or discover quantum mechanics. Whatever it is that allowed humans to accomplish things like that is a worthy basis of a distinction. Is this not a very self-serving assertion, though? Pointing at things that we humans have accomplished and are proud of, and saying that sets…

I’m at a lost as to why I should care? Everything comes down to force. Those animals can opine all they want, but humans have the means, motive and opportunity to make them into tasty food. Their conscious or lack there of has no impact.

> I’m at a lost as to why I should care?

Then I'm at a loss as to why you read the article and are participating in this conversation.

> Those animals can opine all they want, but humans have the means, motive and opportunity to make them into tasty food. Their conscious or lack there of has no impact.

So might makes right, all the time? One can quite reasonable hear some like King Leopold II of Belgium uttering this as he committed atrocities throughout the Congo. Many European settlers and American slaveowners held the exact same view of African humans.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#503

Post by water-your-self »

defrost wrote: post #242
maxbond wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

> I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place. Orthogonal to any argument about conciousness in cats, the most probable explanation is your cat was aware of your scent freshly attached to a book that previously didn't carry it. In my experience cats are acutely aware of scents, particularly known and especially unknown scents in new places. Had you been an unknown cat the chances ar…

I do not agree that the most probable explanation is scent, given the description provided by the comment you are responding to

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#504

Post by dr_dshiv »

mr_toad wrote: post #481
nkoren wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine had two kittens -- siblings, who were very close to each other. One of them was hit by a car and killed. I had adored this kitten, so in memory of her I did a chalk drawing portrait of the kitten, and brought it over to my friend as gift, about a week after the kitten had died. The surviving sibling had, during that time, seemed somewhat morose and unresponsive, but also kind of cryptic in the way th…

Cats seem far more likely to react to hearing a cat on TV than seeing it.

Hypothesis: Cat eyes have a higher frame rate than human eyes. Higher frame rate TVs may work better.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#505

Post by dahart »

npteljes wrote: post #492
dahart wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are rationalizing some assumptions and making overly broad generalizations about “people” and what they believe. Some people ignoring evidence doesn’t mean everyone does. The temporary misguided academic debate over pain in babies was specifically about the displayed aversion to painful stimuli. I do not buy that a significant number of people nor practicing pediatricians ever thought babies can’t feel pain. This…

I'll consider this. I do tend to focus on the negative, and hurtful behavior. I agree that the given evidence is weak, but I can still see that medical professionals believed that it's not pain that babies have. Maybe because it's not "proper" pain somehow, maybe because, circling back to the original argument, their consciousness is not there yet, so there might be pain but there's no suffering, maybe because they w…

> but I can still see that medical professionals believed that it's not pain that babies have

I dont want to beat a dead horse, but I have to insist on a qualifier. Some medical professionals believed something silly, not all of them. Leaving the qualifier out changes the claim… and makes it wrong!

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#507

Post by sdenton4 »

taneq wrote: post #490
cupcakecommons wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is someone under twilight anesthesia or in a deep k-hole approaching the state of being a p-zombie? I would think so. Maybe I misunderstand the definition of p-zombie?

A p-zombie is something that looks and acts indistinguishably from a person, but doesn’t have an internal consciousness, ie. it provides sensory data, remembers past events, and exhibits behaviour, but it doesn’t “feel” or “experience” anything. A heavily sedated person who’s barely conscious is just a regular ol’ zombie.

Traditional* p-zombies presumably form and act on memories, as well - another strike against the 'drunk people are p-zombies' argument.

(* - Not to be confused with the 'fast p-zombies' which were briefly popular in 90's existentialist cinema.)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#508

Post by michael1999 »

nkoren wrote: post #389
kevin42 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of our cats was very old (18+) and sick. We made the choice to have her euthanized to end her suffering and the vet came to our house to do it. One of our other (male) cats loved her and always tried to cuddle her. My wife took the old kitty out of the room where they were cuddling, and after it was done she thought she would let him say goodbye. He got very upset at my wife and hissed at her for days. He's norma…

A friend of mine had two kittens -- siblings, who were very close to each other. One of them was hit by a car and killed. I had adored this kitten, so in memory of her I did a chalk drawing portrait of the kitten, and brought it over to my friend as gift, about a week after the kitten had died. The surviving sibling had, during that time, seemed somewhat morose and unresponsive, but also kind of cryptic in the way th…

That's sweet and sad. I've had cats and rabbits that mourn, and it is impossible to mistake. Some cats don't care, but others become very close. And bonded rabbits mourn for months.

Recognizing the chalk drawing isn't as surprising as you might think. Cat vision emphasizes movement, edges, and contrast. Photos are very flat, but sharp lines catch the eye. An image doesn't have to be perfect to summon a strong memory.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#509

Post by filoeleven »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #504
mr_toad wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats seem far more likely to react to hearing a cat on TV than seeing it.

Hypothesis: Cat eyes have a higher frame rate than human eyes. Higher frame rate TVs may work better.

According to this video, cats’ frame rate is 50 hz, a bit slower than humans’ 60 hz, but with much sharper vision. So perhaps it’s the pixel size and not the frame rate that matters most. Dogs do have a higher frame rate, so your hypothesis could fit their behavior if dogs don’t watch TV.

https://youtu.be/Gvg242U2YfQ?si=Tsfan1-W2DdrDkVi

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#510

Post by deanCommie »

carlosjobim wrote: post #171
deanCommie wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenge is that part of an advanced human society is creating black-and-white lines in structures to promote peace and prosperity. For example, everything we associate with the magical age of 18 years old. "Adulthood", sexual consent, voting, drinking, smoking, conscription all begin on an arbitrary day and we take no consideration of the reality of the maturity of the person. (Not to mention that "maturity" is…

> Not to mention that "maturity" is entirely cultural and contextual. I cannot agree with this. Maturity has a very clear meaning: it is when a human (or animal) has developed enough to be able to sexually reproduce. That people use the word wrongly in everyday conversation is something else. As for what you write about mammals, I completely agree. Just looking at them and interacting with them in real life and it's…

You're talking about physical maturity, I'm talking about mental maturity.

Physical maturity is irrelevant when it comes to mental decisions of how to apply that physical maturity.

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