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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#501

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sillyalbatross wrote: post #390
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every American has access to even government propaganda of foreign adversaries. It's part of the 1st Amendment. Denying access to this information feels really weird As it should. Fortunately, this bill doesn’t do that. If ByteDance won’t sell, TikTok gets removed from app stores. TikTok.com will remain free to access. The bill curtails distribution and amplification, not speech.

The bill explicitly allows the President to designate a "website" as a threat. How that would be applied exactly is a different question, which is why many argue that this is a Pandora's box not worth opening.

> bill explicitly allows the President to designate a "website" as a threat

No, it has to be controlled by a foreign adversary country [1].

The broadest power is in 3(a)(ii) on page 10, which lets the President designate an app or website as a foreign adversary controlled application if it is a significant national security threat following public notice and reporting requirements. But even then, it’s a divestiture order subject to judicial review, not the power to ban.

[1] https://selectcommitteeontheccp.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites...

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#502

Post by xdennis »

codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

> I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns.

The argument that CCP people make is that Facebook et al aren't banned, they just need to follow the law to be allowed. The law, of course, includes unacceptable things like complying with every communist request).

A better way to ban TikTok is to require social media companies to be based in countries which follow basic human rights and democracy.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#503

Post by samspenc »

dartharva wrote: post #477
codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

Plenty of American companies operate in Chinese consumer markets, Apple for example. One fifth of Apple's annual revenue comes from China, yet the country never retaliated with banning it while the US turned the whole world against Huawei.

Errr, are you sure China hasn't done anything against Apple / iPhone?

https://www.reuters.com/technology/chinas-ban-apples-iphone-...

https://www.investopedia.com/china-nationalism-response-to-i...

https://fortune.com/2024/03/05/apples-iphone-sales-plummet-c...

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#504

Post by bjourne »

codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

The word "reciprocity" cannot hide the fact that two wrongs doesn't make a right. We think it is wrong of China to censor Facebook and Twitter because that is what authoritarian regimes that don't give a shit about free speech do. For exactly the same reason it is wrong of the US to ban TikTok. And this bill has nothing to do with balancing international trade. It's stated purpose is to restrict China's ability to influence American youth.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#507

Post by ralphist »

bugglebeetle wrote: post #488
franciscop wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Tiktok is much worse for US citizens: - Facebook+Twitter are US-based entities and have to follow US laws and regulations in a much more strict way than Tiktok - They are not controlled by a politically-motivated adversarial government You are also conflating apps "from a country" vs apps "under a country's gvmt control". I think most here would agree "apps from a plurality of countries" is a good goal to strive…

This is a completely irrational argument, rooted solely in xenophobic appeals, that can be trivially dismissed by inverting the premise: Do Chinese citizens have more to fear from state control and monitoring of domestic social media services or those owned by companies outside China?

They have more to fear from apps under the Chinese government's control. How does that dismiss the parent's claim?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#508

Post by yorwba »

voldacar wrote: post #455
bilekas wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete fairly in their digital ecosystem, why the hell should we continue to grant Chinese firms unrestricted access to our market? I understand what you're saying and I actually support the ban as tiktok can be used as a giant botnet at-will by Chinas government, but an eye for an eye doesn't end well and the US is supposed to be "free" so this part of the argument I…

>an eye for an eye doesn't end well Actually in most games that are played repeatedly, the optimal strategy is to cooperate with cooperators and defect against defectors.

Not if there's a player for whom defecting is always better than cooperating, no matter what the other players do. And not if there's another player for whom cooperating is always better than defecting, no matter what the first player does. Then the first player should always defect and the second always cooperate.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#509

Post by theturtletalks »

jrockway wrote: post #486
codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

How many times do we see the government trample on our rights behind “safety”?

I’m fully with you on this. If TikTok is harmful, spread the word and let people make that decision for themselves. If kids are too small to make that decision, that falls on the parents. Don’t take away my rights because others can’t vet companies and use their brains if they should use the apps these companies put out.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#510

Post by [deleted] »

Miner49er wrote: post #444
tgv wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an expert at all, but does freedom of speech hold for foreigners/foreign entities? Apart from the fact that to me an app is not speech, but that's an entirely different matter.

No, but the First amendment covers Americans' right to receive information, even foreign propaganda.

[deleted]
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