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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#501

Post by rixrax »

xpl wrote: post #480
AlGrothendieck wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Watch the recent Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin. There is a literally 2 hours long historical lecture from Putin, explaining in great detail why (to his opinion) Ukraine doesn't and shouldn't exist as a sovereign state and "in fact" never was, since the beginning of the history, LMAO. This is what really concerns him, if you listen. In his reality, Ukraine is a Russian province, not an independent state. He go…

>> He goes as far as justifying Hitler's attack on Poland

And why wouldn't he. We should not forget that it was russians and nazi's that started the world war 2[0][1]. It's just that the rusians got lucky, and Germany bore all the guilt.

Since then, russians of course have been actively trying to rewrite history.

My grandfather fought russia and later its ideology in battles across the world. I did forget for a while, but his words now shine brightly in front of me: NEVER trust a russian.

[0] https://www.annefrank.org/en/timeline/60/germany-and-the-sov... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact_negoti...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#502

Post by pas »

dataflow wrote: post #497
sph wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the US really risk its name and face ignoring their biggest and most powerful military alliance? Honour and keeping your word are very important in geopolitics, especially among countries that have been allied for almost a century, and you won't remain the top dog very long if you avoid your duties at the first difficulty. So yes, if Russia attacks Latvia, you better believe the US is gonna send everything they…

Would you really go to war over another country at the risk of you and your country getting nuked?

Yes.. ? Russia already and continuously threatening other countries, the US included

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#503

Post by vajdagabor »

xdennis wrote: post #463
vajdagabor wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blackmailing by Orban and his party, not Hungary.

Fair enough, but he's been in power for 18 years (1998-2002, 2010-present). He couldn't do that without widespread and lasting support.

No, people supported them, but that is because democracy was hacked. Hungary is not a democracy anymore (it's a hibrid regime[1]).

The biggest issue is that the majority of the media is controlled by the government. Also they own jurisdiction and have been gradually rewritten the constitution. Most people who support this regime do that because they believe the propaganda. Many people I know have been bitterly trying to tell their family members that they are watching / listening propaganda (unsuccessfully, for years). Most of Orban's supporters don't know much about politics, they just want to live their lives, so they believe whatever is on TV, radio, online media, posters, etc. For many it is very hard to see what is true and what is lie.

But there are many, many people here who don't like this and want a change. The country is in a state where positive change towards democracy is really hard at the moment, many of us still want to believe it is possible.

By the way, we could see this madness around the world in the past years: Brexit, Trump, Bolsonaro… many people can be led by their nose. Not just in Hungary. I really whish if people would learn from Hungary's mistakes, and don't let the same thing to happen in their countries.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_regime

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#504

Post by dataflow »

pas wrote: post #502
dataflow wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you really go to war over another country at the risk of you and your country getting nuked?

Yes.. ? Russia already and continuously threatening other countries, the US included

Can you convince the US population of that so that they'd be willing to risk their lives in a nuclear war?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#505

Post by arrosenberg »

ethbr1 wrote: post #296
arrosenberg wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that practically mean though? Europe could stop Russia today, independent of the US. The first 18 months of ramping up production would be painful, but there is no question who would win. Does Europe want to project force around the world? If so, why? It's much more cost-efficient to let the US taxpayer foot the majority of the bill for navigable seas.

The first thing a war usually uncovers is that a large part of the peacetime commanders, soldiery, equipment, and military industry is completely incompetent. I can't think of a war following a long peace where this hasn't been the case. And unfortunately, incompetence is difficult to quickly discover and replace.

Yes, but what is the threat to Europe that might cause war? Russia can't even project force to the Polish border. Certainly no military threats coming from North Africa.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#506

Post by bertil »

the_why_of_y wrote: post #483
bertil wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ANY desire to join NATO Sweden has been using Nato standards and running occasional exercises with Nato for a while now. They didn’t want to be officially part of it because of their unique perspective on War and Peace (see Olof Palme, sending Blue helmets in Cyprus), but there wasn’t a lack of desire to join. I’d compare it to Switzerland and the EU: the de-facto alliance is obviously beneficial, but principles ha…

Finland realized that Finlandization does not work any more, by observing what happened to another country that tried to Finlandize for the last 3 decades: Ukraine.

I believe they realized that a while ago, but you are definitely right that they have been looking at Ukraine and taking detailed notes.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#507

Post by protomolecule »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #482
protomolecule wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the Russian actions happened later.

Russia obviously had been interfering in Ukraine politics. Why do you think the president fled to Russia? Ukraine even at that point had long wanted to escape Russia's malign influence, banning their language is a declaration of that desire.

[flagged]

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#508

Post by rightbyte »

moogly wrote: post #431
u320 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no debate because everyone was on board. I'm so sick and tired about people lying about this online. There was an election! And many, many polls! ALL OF THEM SHOWED LIKE 80% SUPPORT! But the anti-Nato people are butthurt and feel the need to rewrite history to foreigners. Din jävla fjant.

[flagged]

"NATO standards" is a meaningless technicality. NATO is more like a political suicide pact. The parade troops are just a side show. There is no public meta-discussion about the issue at all except among greens and socialists.

Try talking to some good friends about the prospect of actually fighting in a war. The difference between the public facade of the elite pretending stuff and my "experienced reality" is psychosis inducing. The cheering in this thread is really suspicious. It's one of those things that only seems to exist on the internets.

I got this feeling that the elite just waited for the right moment to push for joining NATO. They have been wanting this for a long time.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#509

Post by bertil »

tga_d wrote: post #488
bertil wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ANY desire to join NATO Sweden has been using Nato standards and running occasional exercises with Nato for a while now. They didn’t want to be officially part of it because of their unique perspective on War and Peace (see Olof Palme, sending Blue helmets in Cyprus), but there wasn’t a lack of desire to join. I’d compare it to Switzerland and the EU: the de-facto alliance is obviously beneficial, but principles ha…

They presumably meant in terms of popular opinion, which was always going to be de facto necessary to join (even if in the end it happened without a referendum). See the list of polls enumerated here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden%E2%80%93NATO_relations#...

The Swiss position on joining the EU follows a similar trajectory: the decision is negative, but that’s not because they think joining the alliance is a bad thing or that relations are strife, but because they thought, or think, that making things official would betray principles.

Maybe compare it to a couple who live together but aren’t married and are opposed to it because one of them sees it as an encroachment of religion.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#510

Post by moogly »

rightbyte wrote: post #508
moogly wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"NATO standards" is a meaningless technicality. NATO is more like a political suicide pact. The parade troops are just a side show. There is no public meta-discussion about the issue at all except among greens and socialists. Try talking to some good friends about the prospect of actually fighting in a war. The difference between the public facade of the elite pretending stuff and my "experienced reality" is psychosi…

[flagged]
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