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Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

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Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#501
Anecdata: I am 22 and I have a bunch of cousins but they are all from generations older than me, so while my half-siblings had a bunch of cousins to hang out with - I don't really have any. The closest I have that are my age are 3 2nd cousins (cousin's children), and we see each other once every 2-3 years. Every time we see each other we end up complaining about how few people are in our family in our generation.

On the other hand, all of my actual cousins are now having children, so it seems the next generation won't be having this problem (in my family).

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#502

I was lucky that my wife convinced me to move close to her family (it would have never occurred to me.) Now we live just a few doors down from her brother who's got 4 kids, and we have 2. Watching the cousins intermingle is an amazing and unique experience. It's kinda sad but it's also obvious that people are majorly missing out. On having kids, on living close to family, on all of it. Ironically, this is evolution i…

That's not how evolution works, and it's not at all clear that a desire or lack of desire to have children is genetic or hereditary.

Yes, people who don't have kids are ending their genetic line when they die. But that doesn't mean that people who have kids are necessarily increasing the pool of people who want kids, percentage-wise.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#503
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only make sense if the issue was biological and not socioeconomic. No one's getting selected out when the issue isn't a biological predisposition to avoiding procreation.

It is biological. Before birth control the desire to have sex was enough to make sure enough kids were had. Socioeconomic circumstances didn't really matter. Unless you were on the brink of starvation, you wanted to have sex. Now that that's no longer enough to produce kids, we need a new biological reason to make kids. That could be resistance to birth control or a stronger natural desire to have kids, not just sex.

That's not a biological reason to make kids. That's just people who decide they want them. It's not at all clear that's a hereditary trait. If it's not, evolution has nothing to do with it.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#504
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only make sense if the issue was biological and not socioeconomic. No one's getting selected out when the issue isn't a biological predisposition to avoiding procreation.

While evolution might be a stretch here, this definitely is natural selection, just not as obvious as in other species. The number of infants globally peaked around 2014-2017 and most of the future population growth will be due to larger generations replacing smaller ones. The decline in population already started, but we're not seeing it thanks to how long we live.

That absolutely is not natural selection at all. Natural selection is the result of a random process. People deciding to have or not have kids is a conscious decision based on their life experiences.

Put another way, someone choosing to have kids isn't necessarily changing the balance between the child-bearing and child-free population in the world. If we could freeze the conditions that cause people to not want kids and keep them constant, we won't see the child-free "die out" and be replaced by people who only or predominantly want to have children. We'll just continue to see roughly the same proportion of people wanting and not wanting to have kids.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a liability only if consumerism is your only value. Which for a lot of people, is absolutely the case. And it’s only logical if you only care about your own individual desires. It almost isn’t worth arguing about, though, because the reality is that society is ultimately made up of people that have kids. All the rationalizations in the world won’t change the basic facts of biology.

Is daycare "consumerism"? Other factors include stagnant wages, collage debts, amd even high medical costs - a vaginal birth with no pain medications and no complications can cost 5-figures (and may include a line-item for a parent holding the baby!). Inflation has made baby products really expensive (did I mention stagnant wages?), and this is before daycare, which can be cost as much as rent in some locales, unless…

>country with a threadbare social safety-net

Sub-replacement fertility is still very much a thing even up here in Northern Europe, though, with our famously generous safety nets.

Here in Finland, however, there's one group of note reproducing well above replacement: The Laestadian fundamentalists up north.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#506
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Australia Australia has made a bunch of home-ownership-unfriendly decisions which the US hasn't – e.g. in the US you get a mortgage interest deduction on your primary residence, in Australia you only get it on investment properties (joint filing for married couples, which the US has but Australia doesn't, also helps here); in the US owner-occupier mortgages are normally no-recourse, in Australia they are al…

Reminder that Dubbo (population of only ~40,000) had to have water shipped in on trucks during the recent drought, so there are valid environmental reasons for the current layout too. A lot of those cheaper places are struggling, they cannot support large populations, and it's been said we've used up the good topsoil over the last 200 years so farming may be facing some issues in the coming years too. I do think we s…

> Reminder that Dubbo (population of only ~40,000) had to have water shipped in on trucks during the recent drought

The Goldfields Water Supply Scheme pumps water over 560 km from Perth to Kalgoorlie; Dubbo is only 380 km from Newcastle. If you were serious about turning Dubbo into the state capital, you would have to give serious thought to building a pipeline to pump water from the Hunter, and then Dubbo would only run out of water if Newcastle was running out of water. (You could also build a pipeline from Sydney to Dubbo, which is only about 20km further, but much more mountainous terrain in the way.)

> I do think we should decentralise, but it will likely look more like Newcastle and Wollongong growing

Newcastle and Wollongong aren't really that much cheaper than Sydney. They are coastal, and everyone wants to live on the coast; also, Wollongong has physical growth limitations due to the Illawarra Escarpment. There's a lot more land on the other side of the Great Dividing Range, and water supply issues could be addressed with sufficient investment in water supply infrastructure.

> Also note, Canberra kind of fits your description - a regional "town", servicing the government. And it's also very expensive. As in, recently reported to be the second most expensive place in the country to buy a house, after Sydney.

Canberra is in some ways Australia's version of Washington DC. Although, DC has a very different social history – e.g. DC has historically (but as of last census no longer) had an African-American majority; and, DC is physically a lot smaller than the ACT is. But, what I am really talking about is an Australian analogue of Sacramento, Albany, Springfield (Illinois), Salem (Oregon), Carson City (Nevada), etc – which is something Australia doesn't have.

All that said, Queanbeyan's median house price is >$50K cheaper than Canberra's, by some measures beneath the average of Australian capital cities. And it is only 20 minutes drive from Canberra. In Sydney or Melbourne, that's what many would call an inner/middle suburb.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#507

Why are people so obsessed about it I have children? I'm married and we've decided we don't want to have kids. It really bothers me when people say "oh you're missing out, that's such a shame". Please think about what you are saying. It doesn't matter if I'm gay, infertile, poor, depressed, or just don't want them. Please keep your judgements to yourself or even just stop judging others.

> It really bothers me when people say "oh you're missing out, that's such a shame" Do you have any friends or relatives who refuse to try ramen or pho, no matter how many times you tell them that it's the best food ever, and that you also thought it seemed weird to put steak in a broth with noodles until you finally gave it a try and then you couldn't believe how delicious it was and you wish you'd tried it years ea…

It's absolutely not like that at all.

Equating encouragement to try a new food and encouragement to bring another life into the world is... a bit silly.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't have any interest in kids. They're expensive and they require a ton of sacrifice. I'd rather travel, golf, do hobbies and generally enjoy my life. The only people that seem to want me to have babies are my parents so they can have grand kids... too which I've told them "Thank you for having me, but that's not a valid reason for me to sacrifice my life". I don't really care about the preservation of the h…

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Technically that makes everyone who's over the age of 60 a sort of parasite. That doesn't mean we look down on them.

Is a childless teacher refusing to do their part to create the next generation? Arguably a good teacher can have more impact on society than any parent will. How about someone who invents a technology that has decades long repercussions.

George Washington didn't have children. Was he a parasite taking just the benefits from society?

I've got kids, but I'm not naive enough to think that people without kids are all parasites. I think a healthy society has a balance of people doing different things - raising children needs a huge amount of attention and emotional labour, and it's definitely not for everyone. But you can contribute to society in other ways.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#509

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

I'm baffled my peers , who absolutely could afford to, still have no interest. These are people making 150-200k (and at my prior job, 200-400k).

It could simply be that child rearing and career success are substitute goods, at least for a plurality of the population. I don't like admitting that, but it seems reasonable to suspect.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#510

Maybe for some it is that easy: Why leading complicated lives with kids, pressure, responsibilities an uncertainties, when it is so much more comfortable and flexible without? Watching netflix and scrolling insta could be enough. The thing is, that life is that thing that starts beyond the comfort zone.

I think there are a lot of ways to get out of your comfort zone that don't involve kids. Failing to find them is either laziness or a lack of imagination.

The thing about having kids is that once you make the leap, you don't get to step back. A single decision to drop the birth control for a bit, and bam -- you're a parent with daily responsibilities for at least 18 years. That'll certainly get you out of your comfort zone, permanently.

But other things you can do are more or less entirely voluntary, and you can stop doing them at any time. So it takes more willpower to maintain, even if doing those things is strictly less work than raising a child.

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