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The Fall of Stack Overflow

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Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 110% replaced it with ChatGPT. Perhaps SO would still have a chance back in its glory days but there's no comparison to having a direct, specific, instant answer vs having to fight against SEO or moderators for hours.

I haven't. Because (free, as in free beer) chatGPT is extremely slow, I have to make a rather extensive proompt to get the result I want to, and then I still have to debug most code. That's not very convenient, atleast for now. I got so used to search engines by now, that it only takes a few keywords to get the expected result. Be it a SO-answer or a documentation page. And as people have mentioned, chatGPT was learn…

> I haven't. Because (free, as in free beer) chatGPT is extremely slow, I have to make a rather extensive proompt to get the result I want to, and then I still have to debug most code.

That's because you are comparing asking ChatGPT to write full code to searching for a question on Stack Overflow and adapting their answer (which is comparing apples and oranges).

Try using ChatGPT like you use Stack Overflow instead (i.e. the question is "How would I record an audio stream to disk in Python" rather than "write me an application / function which...").

As an aside, try "How would I record an audio stream to disk in Python"" in both GPT4 and searching for an answer on Stack Overflow and see what has the better answer! (Clue: GPT4, and if you don't like GPT4's answer just ask it to clarify/change it)

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#502
Well, there's a few issues. Some, may be sour grapes, on my part, but some, were inevitable.

SO has been a great site for me. Not too long ago, it was always my first stop, when looking for correct solutions to difficult problems.

I'm a highly experienced engineer, and a first-class debugger. I always get my bug ... eventually.

What SO would give me, was a correct solution, very quickly. I would ask a question, and have two or three excellent answers, in a matter of minutes.

I could definitely have found the answer, myself, but I would have had to do stuff like set up playgrounds, or even full applications.

Nowadays, they require question askers to do exactly that. In The Days of Yore, I could ask a question, without having to have gone through an hour of debugging and prototyping, and have a great answer.

But, at its heart, it's another wiki documentation site, and wikis don't age well. The WordPress Codex is damn near worthless, and even the great PHP docs are showing their age.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're correct. I've heard that explanation before but it just seems too incredible that they'd undermine their monopolistic global billion dollar business for a measly share of the revenue of geeks4geeks.

the way you phrase it there makes it sounds miniscule, but you scale that up to the size of the SEOified internet and the numbers are surely into the billions

I was thinking the same. Taking in consideration the vast amount of such SEO farms, there's surely a lot of ad money to be spend/earned if you prioritize the "right" sites.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#504
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole situation just shows as a lie everything we hear about SEO. Stack Overflow has the exact text, it loads incredibly fast (should be commended more for this), doesn't require ten meg of Javascript to render as far as I know generally meets HTML standards. These scam sites load megabytes of junk, load slowly, have text interpersed with ads and modals that render right on top of them, if you open devtools you'…

> These scam sites load megabytes of junk, load slowly, have text interpersed with ads and modals that render right on top of them Only if you're not googlebot. The crawler sees a much nicer site.

And the fact that google is not detecting those is damning (to google)

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#505

The problems I’ve noticed with Stack Overflow are a few and hard for me to narrow down but basically: - google used to return really relevant results for SO, and it stopped doing so at some point a while ago - moderation on SO has gotten progressively more horrible. can’t tell you how many times I found the exact, bizarre question I was asking only to see one comment trying to answer it and then a mod aggressively sh…

Seeing these issues many years ago led me to predict the downfall of Stack Overflow then, and I see these identical issues with Wikipedia now.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#506
Oh man, SO, where to start.

I guess I’ve always interacted with SO in a relatively passive way. There’s just too much toxicity that’s plausibly deniable. And with it, lost much of its usefulness.

Every time I try to look for an answer against knowing better, I still get disappointed.

Either the question isn’t there or someone asked it but it was marked as duplicate with a link to a decade old (and for some reason never more recent) question that is vaguely of a similar topic if you squint hard enough.

It’s silly anyways because some of the frameworks I work with are extremely volatile in the sense that they fundamentally change from year to year, so the chances that an older question is stale are all but guaranteed.

I don’t even bother asking the question myself because I see the copious amounts of pedantry while I browse.

Never mind discussions about “the right way” of doing things, I’m talking about entire comment threads about the right terminology of the “well akschually” variety.

Think arguments about whether something should be called a method or a function or whether MVVM is possible with framework X because the author had intended X, Y or Z, when none of it is even remotely relevant nor helpful to the question at hand.

Other forms of pedantry are entirely rewriting the OP’s question because a variable name or function name was disliked, even though the original question as asked was not confusing in the slightest.

The single time I asked a question, it was genuinely challenging and relatively low-level matter, or as close to it as you get in my field. Crickets, aside from 1 extremely low quality answer that didn’t actually answer anything that is.

I tried to focus on answering people’s questions instead, especially on a few relatively new frameworks that come with new conventions as those generate a lot of questions and I managed to become really proficient in them. I figured it would be a good way to give back to the developer community as a whole since it was that very community that enabled me to become proficient in it in the first place.

But stopped doing that too because it’s useless. Either good questions get closed, mods fuck around editing things around or the high level clique just upvotes each other’s low effort drivel.

SO is all but completely useless to me, it has become my last resort and only if I’m really stuck, and every time I dread it like I dread pulling teeth because every time it proves to be an exercise in wasting my time.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here’s a classic SO thread: OP: “how can I accomplish X doing Y?” top voted response: “I wouldnt do X by Y. Instead, I’d consider Z. It’ll do everything X by Y would do, plus these other things.” buried sub comment to top voted response: “that’s not what he asked, to do X by Y (exact solution provided)” then 10 comments blasting the guy who actually answered the question for not doing it the way the top voted answer…

The thing is that oftentimes people who want to do 'X by Y' are actually asking how to accomplish Q. They think 'X by Y' is the solution and get hit by a roadblock, not knowing that it will not help them and they are wasting time. This is called the XY problem and is extremely common on tech related forums and mailing lists. * https://xyproblem.info/

That's unkind, and doesn't really address the nature of the problem at hand.

What's the name for the "I don't want to use a sledgehammer to solve a problem that should be solvable with a screwdriver" problem?

Or in this case, the "spinning up 300 lines of code to integrate an XML parser vs. a dozen lines of code based on regexes" problem. For reasons that are unclear to me, XML parser libraries tend to be painfully difficult to use (speaking from personal experience with 4 different XML parser libraries).

I don't think it's a surprise to anyone involved that an XML parser is going to solve the problem.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#508
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first point seems to be most important. > - google used to return really relevant results for SO, and it stopped doing so at some point a while ago SO might be horrible now, but it still holds years worth of answers that were just fine a few years ago - so why aren't they showing up now? Google's current recommendation of going to w3schools or - even worse - geeks4geeks or any other content farm is and always wi…

This is where I want to remind you, Stackoverflow is a Q/A site that sometimes contains stolen content from, as you put it, so-called "content farms" and the official resources. Now, I do have a Stackoverflow user as well, but I actually prefer publishing my ideas on my own site rather than help build someone else's content farm for free. Stackoverflow is, itself, a content farm, and it can be very hard for new users…

Yes, if you cite a solution the mods there get angry when you don’t copy paste the third party site content instead of just link to it. The stated reason is to make sure the content isn’t lost. In other words to ensure the content is duplicated on SO.

I have no allegiance to SO ownership so when the fake SO sites show up in results instead of SO, usually reading them will just give me the answer more quickly than finding the actual SO source.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those people can look for questions where the "right way" is justifiably unusable, or pose those questions themselves (and find out if they really have to avoid it.) Because you're answering every person who ever will ask, a lot of the people who pass through your question & answer will be people who don't know the difference between the right way and the wrong way. If they want to know how to do something the wr…

> And those people can look for questions where the "right way" is justifiably unusable, or pose those questions themselves Can't be done, will be marked as duplicate.

Exactly. I've seen precisely this "documentation antipattern" occur many times. "How do I do X with Y"? "You probably want to do Z instead". Upvoted, question answered, all other related questions of "no, really I do want to do Y" get closed as duplicates.

Then Googling for doing X with Y gets you a bunch of closed questions and a labyrinth of links all leading to a question that was answered 10 years ago on a different software version where Z possibly was the right way to do it but now isn't.

And of course there's no way to reopen the question because it has been closed by a level 15 Magister Templi moderator and a lowly level 3 apprentice moderator like yourself needs to either answer 146 more questions or moderate 192 other questions to clear enough arbitrary hurdles to achieve holy question reopening powers.

And there's possibly an appeals process but that involves recruiting 13 moderators who you have to convince to give this question special treatment and declare that one of their number of sacred moderators made a mistake.

Re: The Fall of Stack Overflow

#510
I thought it was just me but lately every question I asked seemed to get closed by moderators or I would get irrelevant answers.

This wasnt an issue I remember in the past. I've just kind of drifted away as a result.

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