European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries • Hacker News Board

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#501

Post by pantalaimon » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:13 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #56

unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

No, it's batteries too. And water/dust/fluid ingress protection. Modern phones are sealed up pretty tight because users want them to be waterproof. This makes it very difficult to build in replaceable batteries!

Of all my phones that broke, none was due to fluid but all due to a cracked screen.

Yet I don’t see manufacturers add better screen protection, quite the opposite in fact.

So phone cases/bumpers it is for me now.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#502

Post by Fnoord » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:18 AM UTC

unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

Agreed, its not merely the battery. But wireless headsets don't have user replaceable batteries anymore, while the device itself still works. No matter the software, the dying battery killed the product.

So I see it as a starting point, and we need further targeted iterations, including the one you pointed out (thank you!)

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#503

Post by kaba0 » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:18 AM UTC

HlessClaudesman wrote: post #470

unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

If I could control the software and swap out the parts, I would probably still be using my iphone 4, the first device I felt got depreciated out of existence long before it stopped being useful.

I think we should not really extrapolate from earlier smartphone designs, we have seen incredible improvements yearly in the early phase.

It has considerably slowed down in the last 3-5 years, so it makes sense to only mandate longer lifespans nowadays.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#504

Post by kaba0 » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:21 AM UTC

riedel wrote: post #61

unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

Actually the EU RF, product liability and cyber security regulations rather point into a direction that disallows use of aftermarket firmware that can delay onsolecense and encourages lockdown. Instead of overregulation we need create an economic system that encourages sustainable use of resources. The EU just does what they can do best: regulate

What on Earth should the EU do, that’s their job.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#505

Post by surgical_fire » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:48 AM UTC

astrange wrote: post #327

oblio wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully people here are asking for good regulation, once which states that at some point in the future every phone ever sold in market X needs to have its core software open sourced, so companies can plan ahead.

The EU isn't making good regulation, they don't have any tech companies and are just attempting to make it illegal to make anything in a fit of pique. The end result may be nobody selling phones there anymore. Europe has an unhealthy culture of naturalistic hippiedom, so this is just the same thing that causes Germany to shut down nuclear power. (If you think this one's good, try combining it with their six other gia…

> The end result may be nobody selling phones there anymore

Yes, I firmly believe every every manufacturer would ignore an economic block full of developed countries and 450M people.

This is the sort of bad take that keeps me returning to HN. Some people here are incredibly dense.

On a side note, I wouldn't mind if Apple decided to not sell their toys around here anymore.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#506

Post by tgv » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:53 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #454

tgv wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of assumptions you need to defend your anti-EU stance! First, the EU doesn't have that much power. It's restricted to commerce and a small part of intergovernmental policy. Defense, tax, criminal laws, education, wellfare, etc., are all outside its remit. Second, this doesn't take that much "political bandwidth." Someone proposes it, they discuss, end of. This is not an attempt at extending the parliament'…

> Third, where do you get the idea from that Apple makes the best design decisions for consumers? https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/most-popular-phone-brands If someone decides to buy the phone that is best for them, most likely designer of that phone is going to be Apple. If you like maybe there is an argument it is Samsung or a Chinese company - but fact is that Europe, as far as real-world results, doesn't have a…

You're either some anarcho-liberal, or you're not even trying. No point in discussing.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#507

Post by kaba0 » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:53 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #454

tgv wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of assumptions you need to defend your anti-EU stance! First, the EU doesn't have that much power. It's restricted to commerce and a small part of intergovernmental policy. Defense, tax, criminal laws, education, wellfare, etc., are all outside its remit. Second, this doesn't take that much "political bandwidth." Someone proposes it, they discuss, end of. This is not an attempt at extending the parliament'…

> Third, where do you get the idea from that Apple makes the best design decisions for consumers? https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/most-popular-phone-brands If someone decides to buy the phone that is best for them, most likely designer of that phone is going to be Apple. If you like maybe there is an argument it is Samsung or a Chinese company - but fact is that Europe, as far as real-world results, doesn't have a…

Ridiculous take.

Companies optimize for profit, that’s it. Capitalism only optimizes for that. Regulations are the means we can mandate some other values taking any kind of priority. Otherwise we would still have coke putting cocaine into our drinks.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#508

Post by kaba0 » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:55 AM UTC

forty wrote: post #355

unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

If this is a priority for you, you could vote with your wallet and purchase a fairphone next time your current phone dies. They provide fairly long software support and always had replaceable batteries.

That doesn’t work at all, and is just some capitalist dream.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#509

Post by ExoticPearTree » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 10:02 AM UTC

pwg wrote: post #311

deelowe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this would work given modern supply chains. It can be extremely difficult to track down all of the owners of a particular IP and when you do, many of them may not even exist any longer making it near impossible to get any sort of permission to do something like this.

IP permissions, i.e., copyrights, are not natural rights, they are instead government "grants" of protection. And protection granted by government decree can also be taken away by government decree. So no "permission" to release would be necessary if government's modified ther copyright laws to withdraw their granted protections after some "event" occurred. The bigger problem is not the permission, it is actually fin…

The easy option would be to have a default law like "you open source your code 5 years after it was created for phones/tablets/cars/etc and it automatically applies to your suppliers as well and the necessary software tooling to get it working. If this requires hardware to program the devices, provide the blueprints of the devices as well".

Then it would be understood and agreed that anyone making software they have to release as open source what was closed source 5 years back. This way I would say that you can't bring the "but the competitors will use this to steal my business" argument.

What you would get in essence is a snapshot of what technology looked like 5 years ago (or a decent number of years people can agree on) and you can fork from there if there's a will to give a second life to various devices.

But really, I don't want an ugly phone because someone decided batteries should be user replaceable like in the old days. And yes, I like my iPhone to be sleek.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#510

Post by ffgjgf1 » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 10:10 AM UTC

vasco wrote: post #479

Zuiii wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So violate them they should. Realistically, I'm sure there's a loophole they can leverage to achieve these. The EU is a major party to the WIPO and other members will likely be open to "renegotiating" if the alternative is the EU leaving completely rendering the WIPO pointless. The US pulled this stunt many times with other international orgs and treaties.

The US created WIPO and bullied everyone else to join, there's a big difference in what you can do when you're the one with the world's biggest army by a long shot.

Like what? Having the world’s biggest economy matters much. much more in this case