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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#501

Post by ethbr0 »

scns wrote: post #372
lyu07282 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…

Reminds me of The Tyranny of Structurelessness [0], even though there is a structure. My bet would be, no matter how smart you are, your ape genes have more to say than your brain. The rider (mind) and the elephant (emotions + brain stem) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessne...

110%. Any organization that lacks transparency in decision-making and accountability (that is, attribution of decisions to specific people) devolves into a shadow-hierarchy.

Which is even worse than an explicit hierarchy, because it provides more gray area for people with power to do things anonymously.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#502

Post by ssokolow »

psychphysic wrote: post #240
Ygg2 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Rust team discussion at Reddit, it's not that anyone sprints away, the answer is that no one has the time to balance volunteering for Rust, working on code, reviewing, doing technical review, and then on top of that moderation and doing diplomatic stuff. Essentially no-one wants to do diplomatic stuff, so it falls to only person that likes doing that stuff (which isn't a good thing). Which can leads to episodes…

Perhaps, I've not followed closely but I know the subreddit is heavily moderated from overflow in to other media occasionally. Here is another independent person blowing the whistle on rust culture. https://hackmd.io/@XAMPPRocky/r1HT-Z6_t How many times will this happen before people take it seriously? I'm fully prepared for some horrendous revelations in the future. And we'll all claim to have known nothing and seen…

An important distinction on their moderation style:

---

It's not censorship, it's lack of resources.

We're volunteers. When it's too much work to moderate a thread, we just nuke it from orbit.

-- matthieum @ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/13tsmht/jt_why_i_left...

Re: Why I Left Rust

#503

Post by stjohnswarts »

bruce343434 wrote: post #183

As a non-american I must say I don't understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?

Have you ever been the victim of losing a position because you weren't white? Have you even been turned down for a loan because you weren't white or straight or were “different”. That's why it's a big deal. It isn't everything, but it is a factor all over in America. I seriously don't believe anyone who says it isn't also an issue in other places as well. I lived in Europe for a year in various parts and heard racist talk just as surely as I have as an American, so don't tell me that it's not an issue in other countries, I know it is. Racism is just a subset of ethnic discrimination. It was a little more subtle in most cases, but it was there.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#504

Post by klyrs »

dagmx wrote: post #489
Roark66 wrote: post #294

I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…

[flagged]

I, for one, would love to see compile-time reflection in Rust and I'm genuinely curious how somebody exploring the feasibility of that feature could make anybody feel uncomfortable.

As a minority, I've been subject to firm decisions made on the basis of extremely dubious reasoning before. Is it bias? Who knows, it's never clear-cut in any specific example. But when it just seems to keep happening and nobody can explain why, it certainly feels fishy.

And of course, being on hiring panels and hearing comments like "I don't like how she talks" or "I don't trust men who wear scarves" or "I don't think he'll fit the culture (which is mostly white)" made about candidates, and "I don't see any problem with hiring based on attractiveness" as a "joke" after a hiring decision was made in favor of a conventionally attractive woman... and later hearing comments like "I've never discriminated against anybody" come out of the same mouths? I don't buy it. I don't think I'm unbiased. I don't know how anybody could possibly think that about themselves.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#505

Post by lolinder »

junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Some important context that's missing from your summary (and something I wasn't aware of until I dug into it more) is that the author was a member of Rust's core team [0] and the interim leadership group responsible for designing Rust's new governance structure [1]. They were the one who posted the new RFC on project governance [2].

This isn't a case of one person who was powerless to stop what happened and felt that making a big stink on the internet was the only solution—this was one of the primary decision makers shaping the future of Rust. I think there's a lot of context missing from this blog post about why they felt the need to resign rather than use their position to improve decision making.

For now I'm withholding judgement on who will turn out to be in the right.

[0] Still listed here: https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core

[1] https://blog.rust-lang.org/inside-rust/2022/10/06/governance...

[2] https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/3392

Re: Why I Left Rust

#506

Post by [deleted] »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #433
rgbgraph wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Left Rust

#507

Post by [deleted] »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #433
rgbgraph wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Left Rust

#508

Post by epistasis »

pdimitar wrote: post #485
epistasis wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really love Rust, and I'm very encouraged to see this "ideological posturing" happening in public. There is a wide wide world out there, and just as having an easy to use crate system is important, so is having a large community. You don't get to a large community by being exclusive, but by being inclusive.

Who was being exclusive, exactly? And how?

Don't think of it as an active act of creating exclusion, but of a state that just happened. Doesn't matter how, it could be completely natural, unintentional, and just how growth happened.

It is also almost certainly the case that nobody is being actively excluded (well except maybe from a keynote). But appearances matter, and why have a poor appearance that could come from a bad place when a better one is possible?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#509

Post by mgaunard »

usrbinbash wrote: post #384
mgaunard wrote: post #142

All of the "social" aspects of programming are full of drama. There isn't a conference where I don't hear about a LGBTQ person not being offended by so and so. Then you have the politics of who gets to set out the true vision or be a chair at this or that committee. If you're serious about programming, you just stay away from both of these. Being a language expert is pretty irrelevant anyway, it's just some ego-boost…

> All of the "social" aspects of programming are full of drama. Really? Which golang conference canceled an already invited keynote speaker because someone was feeling "uncomfortable"? How many Python, C, C++, C# related conferences did so? Genuinely curious, just to establish a baseline.

I know for a fact there has been 4 or 5 occurrences at C++ conferences within the past two years.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#510

Post by hgs3 »

bruce343434 wrote: post #183

As a non-american I must say I don't understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?

Life is unfair and some people will use anything they can, whether it be race or whatever, to get ahead. I did the same thing when I was younger: I wrote a book at age 15 and marketed it as being written by a teenager to get sales. In this case, I played into my age rather than race, but the idea is the same.
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