EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones • Hacker News Board

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#501

Post by Auracle » Sun, May 07, 2023, 3:57 PM UTC

skeletal88 wrote: post #471

sharedbeans wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you help me understand what you're saying? It comes off as so over the top that I find it absurd, but maybe we just have different backgrounds/experience. 1) Companies are not incentivized to produce incompatible cables, the industry has done a remarkably good job of settling on basically a single standard, so the incentives seem to run counter to what you say. The major hold out introduced their own cable standa…

This happened because the EU forced them to agree on a single charger/cable standard and it happened to be micro-usb for a while. Before this every mobile manufacturer had their own version of a charging AND data cable, separately..

The EU absolutely did not force micro-usb. It was a strongly worded suggestion at a time when it seems we were already moving that way.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#502

Post by tinus_hn » Sun, May 07, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

ohgodplsno wrote: post #332

tinus_hn wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe actually has some teeth. Playing dumb when Europe tells you "try me" is a sure way to be banned out of the common market. It all remains to be seen, some EU Joe random hotshot issuing warnings is no more than that, warnings. If any action is to come from the EU side, it’ll be after years and years of legal wrangling and it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Apples lawyers end up outsmarting some pompous EU coun…

Ah, yes, Thierry Breton, current European Commissioner for Internal Market who pushed for the Digital Markets Acts (that has Apple currently yielding and tucking its tail between its legs with 0 years of legal wrangling, allowing external app stores but just for Europe because it clearly doesn't care about its US customers) is a Pompous Councilman Joe Random Hotshot that gets outsmarted by Apple's US lawyers. Sure, y…

Only time will tell. As of yet, all we have is warnings.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#503

Post by crazygringo » Sun, May 07, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #418

crazygringo wrote: post #402

I'm confused. Either Apple is following the letter of the law or it isn't. I don't know what a "warning" from EU Industry Commissioner Thierry Breton is supposed to mean. Either the law says USB-C charging is required but doesn't say anything about charging speeds, or it does say something about charging speeds. In any case, Apple has a lot of lawyers and presumably they're following the law as written . I would assu…

> So what exactly is his "warning" about? Not sure about this particular one, but in general, this sort of warning is along the lines of "If you continue expending effort in subverting the spirit of the law, we shall tighten the regulations to such an extent that it will hurt you" . The world and their dog knew what the goal of the regulations were: if the goal is not met because "Apple has a lot of lawyers and presu…

Then it's very childish.

It's the responsibility of legislators and regulators to be clear and precise -- to mean what they say and say what they mean. To "punish" a company for following a law, because of something the law doesn't actually say, is not what rule of law means, and would be a shameful thing. No company should have to intuit or guess what the government "really" meant, over and above what the law actually says.

The EU can go ahead and revise the law, giving companies time to adapt again. That's fine -- that's how it's supposed to work. But some kind of "warning" to "do something we didn't say in the law" is just plain wrong.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#504

Post by arnvald » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #445

arlort wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And actually does anyone know if that’s allowed with these new regulations? Like what if the iPhone 16 they drop it entirely??? Yes the wording of the law is: > In so far as they are capable of being recharged by means of wired charging, the categories or classes of radio equipment referred to in point 1 of this Part shall: [ Legalese way of saying USB-C charging ] So if a device has no power ports it's fine Wirele…

I am genuinely surprised Apple doesn’t just go portless in the EU out the gate.

I think there are still some potential obstacles like diagnostic devices (how to diagnose phone that doesn't boot without a cable?) and pricing - adding magsafe by default would probably raise costs

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#505

Post by auggierose » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

viraptor wrote: post #480

auggierose wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the MoU also allowed for the use of proprietary charging interfaces, and one such solution continued to be used (and still is) by a major mobile phone manufacturer, thus preventing full interoperability. In addition, the MoU never addressed the environmental issues arising from the continued existence of those different charging interfaces and charging communication protocols. So the reasons are: 1. We wan…

If you say 2. is clearly wrong, what are your numbers specifically that disagree with the research summarised in the "Impact" section? Or do you disagree with some part of the linked study? (Which does already take the forced replacement into account)

Yes, of course I disagree with these numbers. First, the study says it doesn't take into account the impact of wireless charging. Well, all I do is wireless charging these days, so already the study is worthless in that respect. Furthermore, a lot of benefits it attributes to unbundling, which Apple already also does for quite a while. Finally, these are made up make-belief numbers without any solid backing, given that all these factors are not really included. Personally, I didn't need another cable for the last 5 years, and I am a heavy Apple user. Somebody else was complaining that they need another cable between their switch, laptop, and iPhone. Yes, the cable is what makes the environmental difference here. Ridiculous.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#506

Post by kaliszad » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

manuel_w wrote: post #8

The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen.

The EU can do some amazing things, however there are also many problems. The recent https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/eu-cra-secure-coding-solut... seems particularly dangerous. Also don't read about the Pfizer vaccine deal with the EU/ von der Leyen. You might loose your trust/ happiness very quickly. Of course, the EU's handling of the Ukraine/ Russia crisis is particularly bad as well, the war could have been over by now. I mean, many Ukrainian people are dying in vain.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#507

Post by yrro » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

taf2 wrote: post #118

What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting qu…

> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug

We've already been through this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#508

Post by sammax » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #375

christophilus wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without cons…

If your connector really is better, so much as to obsolete USB-C, then you may be able to get the authorities to make your connector the new standard. So there is still incentive, and an incentive to make something that is genuinely better, not just for vendor lock-in. Also to keep in mind that this regulation is a consequence of how the market developed in the last 20 years. The EU gave the industry a chance to sort…

> cables haven't improved since USB-C, 9 years ago

Not to distract from your point, which I agree with, but that is just plainly untrue. A USB-C cable from 9 years ago almost certainly doesn’t support current standards for power delivery and data transfer.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#509

Post by InTheArena » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #402

I'm confused. Either Apple is following the letter of the law or it isn't. I don't know what a "warning" from EU Industry Commissioner Thierry Breton is supposed to mean. Either the law says USB-C charging is required but doesn't say anything about charging speeds, or it does say something about charging speeds. In any case, Apple has a lot of lawyers and presumably they're following the law as written . I would assu…

It’s about politics.

It looks good for unelected political bureaus to take strong stances on popular things.

My guess is that Apple wants to restrict USB-c bales to certfied cables (which is not unreasonable given the number of shitty connectors out there), and limit thunderbolt/usb-4 to high end phones.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#510

Post by least » Sun, May 07, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

philistine wrote: post #351

least wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This behavior reproduces with new cables and new iDevices. Considering that this is almost certainly related to your own personal behavior and/or environment, it isn't surprising that you find it reproducible, albeit a bit odd. It only charging one way indicates corrosion, probably on the cable itself, but possibly on the female port on the device itself. Burn marks probably means there's a grounding issue somewher…

> Considering that this is almost certainly related to your own personal behavior and/or environment, it isn't surprising that you find it reproducible, albeit a bit odd. Hey, before you accuse people of doing the wrong thing, make sure you're right. Lighting has historically had shorts issues when inserting, and Apple has tried their best to resolve the problem. They never 100% resolved the problem however, although…

If someone has an issue with their lightning connector shorting out once or twice, that could be chalked up to a manufacturing defect. If it happens always, which they said it does, then it's almost certainly not.