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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

cnn.com

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#501

Post by makingstuffs »

flexie wrote: post #431
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

English too, is a mix of foreign languages. Only dead languages don't evolve. Italian is a descendant of the Latin language, which itself borrowed extensively from Greek. What is so special about today's Italian language that it should by all means be preserved in it's current form without continuing to borrow from foreign languages? European languages borrow from English because the US offers so much that we volunta…

The weirdest thing about this sensationalist proposal is that English was born out of Latin and there are a number of English words which are a letter removed from their Italian counterpart.

The example in the article (bru-shetta/bru-sketta) highlights the absurd pedantic nature of this proposal.

I truly weep for the world which we seem to have created.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#502

Post by thaumasiotes »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #336
Quarrelsome wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try…

I'm Italian, living in Canada, the reason why I'm attached to my primary language is because I know the most vocabulary and language usage. Aside from that, it's an unfortunate language, since you can't use to communicate anywhere else beside Italy. We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication, when invoking cultural issues. If you have to penalize usage of English words, you are doing somet…

> Aside from that, it's an unfortunate language, since you can't use to communicate anywhere else beside Italy.

I was under the impression that you could communicate roughly but effectively between Italian and Spanish.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#503

Post by Krooligyn »

pmontra wrote: post #254
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fatto in Italia" would be just as good, but might not be as widely understood by non-Italian speakers.

It would feel weird to Italians too. Made in Italy is a sentence that has a long history and is widely used. Fatto in Italia would be laughed at. Then, if it becomes a law, it will be fatto in Italia. I bet against it.

"Prodotto in italia" is already common and more targeted to italians. "Made in Italy" is mainly for exports.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#505

Post by kiidev »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #149
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try…

The ironic thing is that half of Italy doesn't speak italian

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#506

Post by thaumasiotes »

stevekemp wrote: post #413
Quarrelsome wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from my perspective given my English background, I like English spelling. Sensibility says I should just give it all up and adhere to the dominant language form (en-US) for the sake of clarity.... and yet.... I shall not. > We tend to forget that the main purpose of a language is communication But also one might consider, or seek the word, that certain way of spitting, tells some peeps we fam. Language isn't just abo…

> I like English spelling. I grew up in the UK and prefer British-English to American-English, both in terms of spelling and pronunciation. That said English has terrible spelling compared to other languages, it's impossible to know how to pronounce a word just looking at the spelling. I don't need to give examples, as it is well-known already. I benefit from the fact that many people I've met around the world speak…

> I benefit from the fact that many people I've met around the world speak English, but it's almost unfortunate that one of the harder/more inconsistent languages "won".

English is not one of the harder or more inconsistent languages in the world. It's one of the simpler and more consistent ones.

This is a general pattern with languages that go through a phase where they are learned by large numbers of adults.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#507

Post by mnw21cam »

ithkuil wrote: post #462
Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but this stuff get pushed as a higher priority over communication, that's my problem with every argument about "preserving culture". If everybody in Italy understands "computer", calling it "calcolatore" is outright against communication (that word in italian is closer to "device to do math operations", which is technically correct, but not what people imagine)

Ironically that's exactly what "computer" means. The root "comput-" comes from latin "computo" while "calcolatore" comes from the latin "calculo" which is a rough latin synonym of "computo". The form "comput-" transformed in Italian into "cont-" like in "conto" (English count), "contante" (cash) etc. So perhaps "contatore" (counter) instead of "computer" would make more etymological sense.

Only a short time ago, the word "computer" meant a person (who calculates things as a job).

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#508

Post by thaumasiotes »

ithkuil wrote: post #464
lwhi wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to find a word for 'snow globe' too ..

This is an artefact of how Germanic languages can often just glue words together without explicit connective words "Sfera di neve" doesn't like a word whole "snow globe" does and indeed some write it as "snowglobe"

That's not especially distinctive of Germanic languages. Chinese will do it exactly the same way, though the chains of nouns that are common in Germanic would be unusual to say the least in Chinese.

But gluing words together without explicit connections is common pretty much everywhere. Compare Greek, which freely forms adjectives that way, or Latin sanguisuga "bloodsuck[er]" (leech) or lucifer "light-bear[er]" (light-bearer).

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#509

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

wizofaus wrote: post #470
rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard for me to imagine guns or imperial units catching on any time soon (to be fair, we didn't invent imperial units!), but I would not be too surprised if some European nations start slowly privatizing bits of their healthcare systems. The profit motive is sneaky and creeps in slowly. Usually it starts by capturing the hearts and minds of those in power. And regarding attitudes toward women's bodies, one only n…

Not sure I understand your last point at all - aside from the fact I was purely referring to women's rights to make medical decisions involving their own bodies (even life saving ones), I would have thought toplessness was typically considered far less acceptable in the US than in most of Europe...

Yes, much fewer Spanish women go topless on the beach today compared to just 20 years ago.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#510

Post by schnitzelstoat »

Aeolun wrote: post #385
beaned wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, have you been to any of the major western European cities in the last 15 years? They're pretty brown now. At least these cities seem to greatly favor immigration.

I wouldn’t say they favor immigration, but they’re dealing with it as gracefully as possible, under the circumstances.

But they voted for the politicians that adopted those immigration policies - it doesn't happen by itself.
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