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Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

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Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#501

Post by alexgolive »

1over137 wrote: post #497
karaterobot wrote: post #386

It's too bad, because the best managers I've worked with were not good ICs, but they did multiply the effectiveness of the ICs they worked with, and so were absolutely invaluable to the company in a way that may not have shown up on paper. If those people exist in FB, as I'm sure they must, then they'd presumably get jettisoned as a result of this choice. That would be bad long term. I used to despise managers, until…

What does "IC" mean in this context?

Individual contributors - as opposed to managers

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#502

Post by shagie »

1over137 wrote: post #497
karaterobot wrote: post #386

It's too bad, because the best managers I've worked with were not good ICs, but they did multiply the effectiveness of the ICs they worked with, and so were absolutely invaluable to the company in a way that may not have shown up on paper. If those people exist in FB, as I'm sure they must, then they'd presumably get jettisoned as a result of this choice. That would be bad long term. I used to despise managers, until…

What does "IC" mean in this context?

Individual contribuitor. In most cases, this is roughly "people who write code."

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/what-is-a...

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#503

Post by civilized »

brookst wrote: post #459
likeabbas wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the easiest way to solve this issue would be to normalize ICs making more than their managers. That way, only the people who really want to be managers are managing.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't know how you "normalize" it if companies find that they are more profitable paying managers more.

> if companies find that they are more profitable paying managers more.

Is there any reason to believe this? Other than just assuming that whatever companies do is optimal for their profits?

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#504

Post by flashgordon »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #236
nerdponx wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if they were on purely my own Is this actually the expectation at the places you work?

I'm not a manager, but at the very least it seems like an implicit expectation associated with the role. I wouldn't be surprised if it was explicit at some companies.

It is painful because it is explicit. In an implicit world every one know it is bs and just move on

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#505

Post by astrange »

time_to_smile wrote: post #82
theandrewbailey wrote: post #59

What exactly is an "individual contributor"? I'm confused. This term has come out of nowhere in the past 5 years, and it sounds like you're referring to someone who backed a kickstarter campaign. If this is the new term for "employee", I'm out. I can't stand that companies refer to their customers as "consumers".

It all came from the industry wide shift to make sure that software engineers were even more just cogs in a machine that could be hot swappable. The growing concept of "IC" goes hand in hand with the increased focus on "leveling" for engineers, as well as the rise of delegating all product related decisions to the rising class of PMs. All of these create a structure in which every team, even across companies, starts…

Apple doesn't have PMs nor treat people that way, and has called non-managers ICs since approximately forever.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#506

Post by jensensbutton »

likeabbas wrote: post #427
karaterobot wrote: post #386

It's too bad, because the best managers I've worked with were not good ICs, but they did multiply the effectiveness of the ICs they worked with, and so were absolutely invaluable to the company in a way that may not have shown up on paper. If those people exist in FB, as I'm sure they must, then they'd presumably get jettisoned as a result of this choice. That would be bad long term. I used to despise managers, until…

IMO the easiest way to solve this issue would be to normalize ICs making more than their managers. That way, only the people who really want to be managers are managing.

That's an easy way to have zero managers and more problems than you started with. The vast majority of ICs are like children. It's not fun dealing with them. The only way one voluntarily takes on that role is for equal or greater pay.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#507

Post by prepend »

KaiserPro wrote: post #287
prepend wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chief surgeons do all those things you describe. Check out the job description [0] as they are basically department heads doing recruiting, budgeting, supervising, etc. Chief Surgeon doesn’t mean best surgeon. [0] https://www.betterteam.com/chief-surgeon-job-description

Sorry you are right, I meant a consultant. But it is a bad analogy, as you've implied. What I was trying to get across is managers should be specialised, they should be someone who might or might not have been a programmer, but is now specifically managing people, or projects. Managers who code, do exist, as to engineers who manage. But its better at large companies to have specialists to manage projects and people.…

What’s interesting is that all chief surgeons were once surgeons, probably really good. So there’s idea that you have to do the thing to manage the thing.

Medicine is strange in many ways, but I think this isn’t a bad practice.

I’ve worked for non-dev managers and sometimes they are good. But I prefer to work for someone who at least once was a dev as I think they understand better what is possible and how to coordinate and lead.

When I managed teams I always tried to do something useful in the codebase. I don’t think it is possible to manage well and work deeply enough to make great software. But it’s possible to at least be able to do my own builds and at least test out different techniques.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#508

Post by flashgordon »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #131
nerdponx wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if they were on purely my own Is this actually the expectation at the places you work?

> Is this actually the expectation at the places you work? Can you imagine a manager saying, "I don't agree with these decisions, but you need to do A, B, C." This might be being frank and open with your reports, but at the same time you reduce their motivation. And if top management learns about this, they won't be happy. So yes, there is such unspoken pressure to at least not to distance oneself from the things you…

This is how I operate when I have a close trust with my team and boss. But I have also been in very transactional environments where I was "ratted out" for my frankness!

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#509

Post by loeg »

knert wrote: post #467
ncann wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Too often people feel becoming manager is the easiest way to advance their career (which most of the time equates to making more money). In many cases becoming manager is the only way to advance their career in the current org.

I interviewed for FB once and I don’t believe this is the case there. I was told the comp levels ran parallel for ICs and Managers. They do value their ICs it seems. This was one of the main reasons I was interested in working for them. You can see it on levels.fyi

The levels are parallel but it’s easier to get promoted to level 6+ on the management track.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#510

Post by likeabbas »

jensensbutton wrote: post #506
likeabbas wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the easiest way to solve this issue would be to normalize ICs making more than their managers. That way, only the people who really want to be managers are managing.

That's an easy way to have zero managers and more problems than you started with. The vast majority of ICs are like children. It's not fun dealing with them. The only way one voluntarily takes on that role is for equal or greater pay.

I disagree. The vast majority of managers are nothing more than people trying to climb the bureaucratic rank and are not truly helpful in multiplying the efforts of the mid-senior ICs below them.
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