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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#501

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

Dzugaru wrote: post #478
ArteEtMarte wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the UK, that happened to me on a roundabout. Elderly driver in front pulled out and then, for no visible reason, slammed on the brakes. I ran into the back of her. It was deemed to be be 100% my fault. Here, if you run into the back of the car in front, it is always your fault. No exceptions. It makes sense: you should always leave enough room to stop, so I couldn't really complain. But, if everybody did that…

I've heard a story from a friend that was in an accident like that. A police officer who did the paperwork smiled and said "It's the most common type of accident - people just stop paying attention to the car in front that started moving, and develop sort of a blind spot to that". I drive for several years, and can say my brain relies heavily on this sort of predictable stuff like "that car has free intersection in f…

Crashed at a intersection into the driver in front of me. Started driving, and i looked wethere there was traffic coming from the left, the other driver in front of me stopped for no reason. Still my fault, but in some situations, with multiple dangers, you rely heavily on the people behaving predictable.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#502

Post by pigtailgirl »

naavis wrote: post #465
benj111 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I gather from the article the car didn't suddenly stop. I still suspect it would be classed as dangerous driving as there wasn't a need to stop and they did find a safe place to stop. If it did suddenly brake though and it was the car, that seems like something Tesla should be liable for. The time taken for any driver, when a car starts automatically braking, to assess the situation and override isn't going…

The article links to another article with a video recording of the accident: https://theintercept.com/2023/01/10/tesla-crash-footage-auto... The car does stop pretty suddenly.

-- not only does it stop suddenly - applies break - signals into a new lane - changes lane into new lane - breaks hard - well actually - if you watch the video frame by frame - it starts to initiate a left hand turn for lane change before it even signals - if a driver did this to me - sure i hit them --

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#503

Post by [deleted] »

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #468
__alexs wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly stopping at high speed is generally considered (at least in the UK) dangerous driving and will get you prosecuted and probably mean you lose your license at the very least. If it results in a death then you can get a life sentence in prison for it. Intentionally stopping inside a tunnel is a pretty clear cut case of dangerous driving over here.

However there can be many reasons why a car has to stop suddenly: for example, a child might suddenly cross the road, or the driver might feel he or she is having a heart attack. My driving school teacher used to say: always remember that the car ahead of you could suddenly stop at any time for a reason that you might not know.

[deleted]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#504

Post by SilverBirch »

redox99 wrote: post #471
__alexs wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly stopping at high speed is generally considered (at least in the UK) dangerous driving and will get you prosecuted and probably mean you lose your license at the very least. If it results in a death then you can get a life sentence in prison for it. Intentionally stopping inside a tunnel is a pretty clear cut case of dangerous driving over here.

> If it results in a death then you can get a life sentence in prison for it. Can you provide an example of someone getting a life sentence because of an accident caused due to braking? That doesn't sound right.

I think they're referring to the offence "Death by dangerous driving" and it now can carry a life sentence[1], but you would really have to be doing something exceptionally bad to get a life sentence - it would have to be deliberate, likely a repeat offence, and have other aggravating factors for that sentence. Real sentencing in the UK is very lenient- famously an American woman killed a teenage motorcyclist when she was driving on the wrong side of the road, claimed diplomatic immunity and fled the country, she eventually returned to the UK to be sentenced to... 8 months in prison suspended sentence.

[1]:https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/it...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#505

Post by jmyeet »

fullsend wrote: post #406
cm2187 wrote: post #385

From what I can tell, the car behind the tesla didn't crash into the tesla but stopped before. And so did the car behind that one. It is the cars after that that crashed into each others. While automatic cars doing random things is certainly problematic, clearly the cause of the crash here isn't the tesla, it is other cars not respecting minimum safety distances and not able to stop when there is a traffic jam ahead.

In my opinion 90% of the reason we don’t have more accidents is because people are so predictable. Watch dangerous drivers weave through traffic - it’s only possible because everyone follows spoken and unspoken rules. Randomly stopping is not some “you need to be prepared, it’s your fault” moment.

I cycle a lot in an area that is quite touristy. There is a lot of shared infrastructure with pedestrians, rollerbladers, scooters and skateboarders. You get very good at spotting people who don’t know what they’re doing that are potentially dangerous usually because they’re oblivious to their surroundings.

For example, pedestrians crossing a bike path. Because a lot of people clearly don’t walk often they will just walk out without looking. People aware of their surroundings will look both ways. As soon as you see someone do that you can pass close to them without spooking them because you know they’re aware.

My point here is a ton of this comes down to acting predictably. Even a simple act like looking at someone will alleviate a ton of uncertainty.

The barriers to fully autonomous self-driving are huge and not necessarily technical. Acting predictably, being able to explain actions, drivers driving differently because another vehicle is automated and cultural differences.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#506

Post by iainmerrick »

qsdf38100 wrote: post #474
iainmerrick wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the same. One earlier article about this had a rather inflammatory photo of some twisted-up cars next to an empty baby buggy. But if you watch the video, that’s clearly where some human drivers ploughed straight into the back of the pile-up. The Tesla autopilot failure is really bad, for sure, but those human drivers should be banned for life. There’s no excuse for ramming into a traffic jam because yo…

I believe there is a dynamic effect. The first driver has some reaction time needed so he’ll start breaking after the Tesla starts breaking. Which means, assuming they were at the same speed initially, that the 1st car will have to break a bit harder than the Tesla. Then the second car will be in the same situation, it will have to break a bit harder than then first. 5 cars later, you are at the hardest possible brea…

That's a nice explanation, I'll buy that!

To mitigate it, each driver needs to look 2 or 3 cars ahead, not just at the car in front. Everybody should do that but it's understandable if they don't (and it might be hard to see clearly, especially in a dark tunnel).

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#507

Post by progman32 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #32
threeseed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are of course at fault for not leaving a safe distance. But ultimately the behaviour of the Tesla FSD system is what caused the chain of accidents.

> They are of course at fault for not leaving a safe distance. They weren't following the Tesla. And a reasonable safe distance does not usually account for the guy in front of you doing an assisted stop. That is far enough outside reasonable expectations.

> And a reasonable safe distance does not usually account for the guy in front of you doing an assisted stop.

A distance where a sudden stop results in a collision is not a reasonable safe distance.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#508

Post by Geee »

maury91 wrote: post #492

I'm trying to reason "why the Tesla did stop?", in the second video on TheIntercept website, I can notice a left exit before the point where the Tesla stopped. Something I noticed with Google maps ( I don't have a Tesla, and maybe the navigation system of the Tesla is similar ), is that sometimes thinks tunnels can access the road above them ( in a tunnel near my home Google maps always tells me "turn right" in the m…

Yeah, seems plausible. Tesla should implement a confidence-based system: if it detects an area with high chance of errors (e.g. tunnels), it should put the driver on high alert or disable the system.

They probably already have a heatmap of driver interventions, which could be a starting point. The data might be usable for training a generalized confidence map.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#509

Post by pigtailgirl »

tinus_hn wrote: post #400

In other news, no car has ever seized up and stopped at an inconvenient moment before Tesla made this horrible mistake, and keeping a safe distance would not be necessary if it weren’t for those dang automated drivers. Now get off my lawn!

-- had an engine seize up in college on the highway - doesn't just grind to a stop - still have a lot of control and speed - and - didn't change lanes into the left lane - i moved to the right slowly with my hazard lights on --

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#510

Post by PebblesRox »

naavis wrote: post #472
bearmode wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because then you have to slow down to keep a safe following distance again. Then it happens again, and again, and again.

Why is this a problem?

One car driving significantly slower than the rest of traffic can itself be a safety problem:

"To keep a smooth traffic flow, some highways also have minimum speed limits. If you drive slower than the minimum speed you can halt the traffic flow and create a dangerous condition. Even if there is no minimum speed limit, those driving too slow can be as dangerous as those who drive too fast."

https://dmv.ny.gov/about-dmv/chapter-8-defensive-driving#yre...

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