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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#501

Post by TreeInBuxton »

withinrafael wrote: post #420

This is Microsoft's second go at a developer-focused ARM kit. You may recall the first was called the Snapdragon Developer Kit [1] and was a miserable machine. It appears Microsoft has already pulled it from the Microsoft Store [2]. There is no other supported desktop/CI/etc. solution for Windows on ARM. (Mac mini with Parallels/VMware is a popular unsupported alternative. It may still be your fastest.) Seems like a…

I am working on the Windows on Arm project at Linaro, enabling various OSS programs for WoA (currently working in Blender), there is some appetite :)

Feel free to ask questions!

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#502

Post by AshamedCaptain »

Scharkenberg wrote: post #438
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Surface RT which disagrees.

In case it was not immediately obvious, this discussion is not about the Surface RT, but about the Windows Dev Kit 2023. It ships with a different Windows version, on a different Arm architecture, with different policies regarding locking down.

And? "In case it was not immediately obvious" by me specifically pointing an MS ARM device, MS's "policies" when shipping ARM devices have been much more locked down than x86. Around 50% of ARM devices released by MS so far have been completely locked down, incapable of running anything except for some version of Windows. Not just "FUD by nerd circles".

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#503

Post by Scharkenberg »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #502
Scharkenberg wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it was not immediately obvious, this discussion is not about the Surface RT, but about the Windows Dev Kit 2023. It ships with a different Windows version, on a different Arm architecture, with different policies regarding locking down.

And? "In case it was not immediately obvious" by me specifically pointing an MS ARM device, MS's "policies" when shipping ARM devices have been much more locked down than x86. Around 50% of ARM devices released by MS so far have been completely locked down, incapable of running anything except for some version of Windows. Not just "FUD by nerd circles".

All ARM64 Windows devices have been "bootloader-unlocked". That has been the case for the last 5 years. Windows RT and Windows Phone devices are literally irrelevant to this discussion regardless of your anecdote.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#504

Post by AshamedCaptain »

Scharkenberg wrote: post #503
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? "In case it was not immediately obvious" by me specifically pointing an MS ARM device, MS's "policies" when shipping ARM devices have been much more locked down than x86. Around 50% of ARM devices released by MS so far have been completely locked down, incapable of running anything except for some version of Windows. Not just "FUD by nerd circles".

All ARM64 Windows devices have been "bootloader-unlocked". That has been the case for the last 5 years. Windows RT and Windows Phone devices are literally irrelevant to this discussion regardless of your anecdote.

In the past 5 years, how many ARM devices has MS released, other than the Surface Pro X ?

My "anecdote" is actually the majority of MS's history so far. You just can't claim it's scaremongering when they have released so many locked down ARM devices it's hard to remember all of them, and definitely easier to just remember the few "unlocked" devices they have ever released (just the X?).

And also "obviously" we should mention that even in the so-called unlocked Surfaces you are still forced to entirely disable Secure Boot in order to run Linux or _anything else_, with the consequences that implies. For example, it is dubious you will be able to load future versions of Windows, since those will require SB to be on (W11 already officially does, even if it doesn't seem to enforce it -- yet). A properly unlocked device would allow you to load your own signatures while keeping SB enabled.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#505

Post by q-big »

lodonnell9213 wrote: post #490
my123 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snapdragon Developer Kit was built with a "cost above all" mandate, $219 target pricing but it just wasn't powerful enough. > There is no other supported desktop/CI/etc. solution for Windows on ARM. (Mac mini with Parallels/VMware is a popular unsupported alternative. It may still be your fastest.) Azure cloud instances are also an option. > but I'm not sure if there's remaining appetite for Windows target-specific d…

I feel Microsoft is in a similar position to it’s windows phones in regards to ARM. Additionally they don’t have a system like Rosetta 2 to help with translation, a LOT of windows apps are x32/64 based, and there has to be an incentive for devs to make the switch, Apple faced this issue when moving from PPC, they used I believe Carbon to help, and over time took carbon off and forced devs to update to apples current…

> and there has to be an incentive for devs to make the switch

Why make the devs switch? It would be much more in the spirit of Microsoft (opposed to the common spirit of Apple and GNU/Linux) to encourage to develop parallelly for ARM, too.

The switch from 16 to 32 bit Windows was "support running 16 bit applications still for a long time". Similarly for 32 to 64 bit Windows (32 bit applications are still perfectly supported). This is in contrast to how how it is typically done on GNU/Linux (distributions typically make it hard to support 32 and 64 bit at the same time) or what Apple typically does (only support the old architecture only for a short time and nudge developers heavily to do the switch).

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#507

Post by rand49an »

fleddr wrote: post #295

Honestly, if Apple were to care, they could undo the course of computing history where at one point Windows became the monopoly. Launch a 500$ category laptop, say 3 gens old. That would soon be M1. Won't be very profitable, but a direct competitor to the typical crappy Windows low-end laptop. Yet it's so much better in performance, security, battery life, total lifespan, etc. Double down on making it idiot-proof. Op…

> I would admit that it would take many years to make a dent, but there's no rush to it. Windows seems a sitting duck. Nobody, including Microsoft, seems to care about it.

Microsoft are too busy making money on Azure and M365 subscriptions for the hundreds of thousands of companies heavily invested in Microsoft apps. Windows is just one platform to get users to those apps. Microsoft are pushing Intune/MEM so organisations can push Microsoft apps to all devices including Apple ones. They don't care about the OS because it's not important.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#508

Post by itsoktocry »

wmf wrote: post #194
Sakos wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

The solution to chicken-or-egg problems is known: you spend money to just overpower the problem. But MS and Qualcomm aren't doing that; they're half-assing their ARM hardware to save a little money.

>The solution to chicken-or-egg problems is known: you spend money to just overpower the problem.

Ah yes, "just spend more money" has solved so many problems over the years. Can anyone even name a single time a lot of money was spent and the product failed? Victory is practically guaranteed!

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#509

Post by itsoktocry »

MBCook wrote: post #325
eric-hu wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving your point, Amazon designed graviton, an ARM processor for their data centers.

Data centers know power/heat is everything. I’m not surprised they’re leading the way. But as a consumer you’re stuck. You should have a machine with the performance of any normal/good laptop with way better thermals and battery life. I’m not sure what the Uber-high end laptop would look like but surely it would do better than today. The scale needs adjusting. What counts as “too hot”, “too short battery life”, “mini…

>The industry acts like Macs are magic and therefor incomparable.

The cheapest M1 is $1300 in Canada. MacBook Pros are well over $2000. These prices are far beyond the budget of the majority of computer users. They are also beyond the requirements.

>Of course that Boeing goes faster, it’s a jet engine plane. You can’t compare that to our cars.

No, it's like comparing a BMW to a Honda. You spend a lot less money and then are surprised it doesn't perform as well?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#510

Post by stevefan1999 »

mrkstu wrote: post #293
wyldfire wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Nuvia acquisition seems to indicate that at least Qualcomm wants to . might be some generations before we see their designs.

Except for the fact ARM is suing them to prevent using any of the Nuvia tech in their chips, since the license terms with ARM didn't convey with the purchase. There is a good chance they get on the verge of shipping and find they can't actually sell any of their new chips... https://www.axios.com/2022/09/06/arm-qualcomm-nuvia-chip-gia...

...and for some reason I conspire Apple is behind this
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