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“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

nature.com

501–510 of 883 posts

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#501
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always say this. But I have a hard time believing things weren't more divisive, say, during The Vietnam War. The internet makes conflicts more visible. It also attenuates them, so fewer people get killed. Physical conflict is transformed into digital conflict.

I’m specifically talking about the 90s and not all pre-internet time periods. Cold War was over, Berlin Wall came down, Gulf War was over on almost the first day thanks to stealth technology. Comedy was at a high point, music was diverse and fun. There was a lot more happy and a lot less angry in people.

> Comedy was at a high point

It really was.

Speaking of which-- what ever happened to the guy who did the "women be shoppin'" Def Jam parody in the nutty professor? I remember he appeared on some talk shows at the time but it's as if he dropped off the face of the earth in the 2000s, 2010s and the past year.

Whoever he was, 90s comedy was surely the pinnacle by any measure I can think of.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ableist This seems like an implicit denial that people can have different abilities.

Yeah I never really got the whole "ableist" thing; for example, obviously someone who can't see is less capable of performing visual tasks than someone who can. Does that mean shipping a device with a screen is ableist because not everyone can take advantage of the fact that it has a screen?

I know many people that are sensitive on this issue and none of them would call that ableist.

I'm sure they exist but focusing on the extremes of a movement don't do anyone any favors

For example, most people on this site are a fan of open source. How would they feel if anytime the subject came up people talked only about the ideas of Stallman?

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#503
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Q: What happens when we stop agreeing on what the “good” is? A. I am right and you are evil. Age old conflict resolution method.

"Good" is not well-defined so let’s rephrase it as "interests". People with the same ideologies flocks together. So when conflict of interest happens, each flock believes that > "We" are good and "they" are evil. > "We" are right and "they" are wrong.

As mentioned elsewhere here, good cannot be reduced into simpler terms. You're correct, we must refer to specifics.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#504
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know they literally can't hear it, but I always have the urge to tell Gen Y and later that for a minute in the mid-late 90's we had this shit mostly, not totally - that'll never happen - but mostly figured out. I disagree. We didn't have it figured out - it just did not get on many folk's radar because of the differences in network effects prior to the internet. If you were a lonely kid in a farming town who want…

Yes, outcasts used the internet to find and support each other online. And we noticed this great thing quite a while ago. But it seems only more recently did we also become aware of the other side... it similarly boosting toxic communities, isolated echo chambers, etc. If someone wanted to, lets say, "make love with toasters", he'd be looked at weird and gotten over it in the days before the internet. Now he'll find…

>If someone wanted to, lets say, "make love with toasters"...

Dalibaner sighted

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#505
It seems like many commenters here are not practicing scientists and may misunderstand the role that ethics frameworks, such as these, play in the process of scientific publication.

When conducting scientific experiments, a lot of care is taken to design them well before performing them. We do this to prevent basic mistakes, avoid pitfalls that previous researchers fell into, and be careful that readers of our work don't misconstrue or misinterpret results that we find.

If you develop a new drug to treat newly developed breast cancer and find out later that one of your recruited subjects has breast cancer that had metastasized from elsewhere (and is thus not new), should that patient be included or excluded from your study? This is a basic mistake that should have been avoided, but what's done is done and you need to decide what to do next with this individual.

Is it ethical to have that individual participate in the this research study? Their cancer history is not relevant for the study you're conducting, but are you depriving them of an opportunity to benefit from this new treatment if you exclude them? Are you depriving them of accessing more medically relevant treatments from other studies? What about the person with breast cancer who would have been included in this study if this person wasn't mistakenly selected? Are they not deprived of the opportunity to potentially benefit from this treatment if the first subject is not excluded?

Many ethics frameworks focus on those who _are_ involved in the study. These include things like:

- how was informed consent about risks and potential rewards obtained?

- how easy is it for the subject to withdraw from the study?

- what degree of discomfort or surgery will they be subjected to?

- should the study be restricted only to patients with terminal diseases, or others as well?

The guidelines from the linked article, however, focus on the ethics of individuals who _are not_ involved in research studies.

> However, these frameworks apply to research involving the participation of humans and do not generally consider the potential benefits and harms of research about humans who do not participate directly in the research. > Such research is typically exempt from ethics review.

If you're studying heart attacks but only recruit men in their 60s for your study, then you are not obtaining information about women of the same age bracket, even though they are also affected by this medical condition. If no research on heart attacks for women in their 60s is ever conducted, whatever treatments that are later produced to prevent or treat heart attacks that build on this research effectively exclude women, even if that was not the original intent of the study. The women not included in these studies also have dignity that requires ethical consideration when designing these scientific experiments.

These new guidelines add notes on considering sex and gender. These are obviously important considerations in journals like Nature Human Behaviour, where gender expression in societies, across cultures, and across times will be heavily studied.

These new guidelines also add notes on race and genetic ancestry. These are important for studying disease genetics, for example, where mutations in tumours from individuals of European ancestry look different from individuals of African or East Asian ancestry. These differences may result from environmental exposures where these people live (e.g. access to healthcare in poor or rich regions), societal events that affected some groups but not all (e.g. genocide, nuclear fallout), or differences originating long ago from their genetic ancestors of a specific ancestral region.

Not recruiting certain groups of people in these studies prevents future research from being funded that would be applicable to those same people. It also prevents confounding variables when comparing across populations. You can imagine that if only one type of data is available for a certain demographic compared to newer and more advanced data from another, that comparisons between those groups will be confounded and not fair to either group.

There are a lot of annoying checklist requirements that one has to go through for submitting a scientific article, but these are not them. There are good reasons to include these guidelines in scientific journals.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#506
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that the linked policy says almost the exact opposite of Fermi's statement, implying that ignorance is sometimes better than knowledge: "...considerations of harm can occasionally supersede the goal of seeking or sharing new knowledge, and a decision not to undertake or not to publish a project may be warranted."

Well, sometimes information can cause harm. For example, revealing a terminal diagnosis to a patient could lead to suicide. I don't think science should be censored, scientific inquiry should continue with integrity regardless of what people think. What I think is people who can't handle it should not have access to the truths revealed. I generally believe in unrestricted free information but I've been rethinking tha…

Information cannot cause harm. Harm is done by people.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#507
What I'm really curious about is why this kind of rhetoric immediately jumps out as a red light to me regardless of whether I agree with the intended outcome or not. Then there will be some developer, just like me, sitting right next to me, who is probably smarter than me, who just eats it up.

And for my own 2c, yes, scientific truth and freedom of speech trumps some abstract ethical risk every single time.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#508

No, science must pursue the truth, no matter where it leads. There is no such thing as a hate fact.

I think there is a lot more nuance than people admit. Lets take an example of we have a deadly disease spreading through the population (much more deadly than covid) . Let's say a scientist finds out that the disease is primarily (exclusively) spread by red haired people. Should they just publish the finding? The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lyn…

> The fact becoming openly known might lead to mobs of people chasing red hairs and locking them up or even lynching them.

You missed this small little thing called Rule of Law, which - in any polity worth living in - bans vigilante justice and forming mobs to punish people without trial.

You also missed this other small little thing called the Internet, where you can publish a paper on arxiv for free without review, or post its PDF link on 4chan completely anonymously. Together "Red-Haired People Spread Disease" being a fact, and thus is almost certainly being discovered independently by several labs and institutions at the same time, this will ensure that the truth will come out, and much faster than you think. The only difference is if the public hears it from your institutions first, i.e. your legitimacy and credibility in the public eye.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#509
post #6

Yet, people can be harmed indirectly. For example, research may — inadvertently — stigmatize individuals or human groups. It may be discriminatory, racist, sexist, ableist or homophobic. It may provide justification for undermining the human rights of specific groups, simply because of their social characteristics. [..] Advancing knowledge and understanding is a fundamental public good. In some cases, however, potent…

The statement from Nature has been very carefully worded. The quote in the parent comment seems to suggest that perfectly valid scientific findings should be withheld if there is a possibility that bad people would misuse them. The consequence of this of course would be a complete victory of "Blank Slate"[1] Dogma (because any scientific finding that finds differences between social groups could be misused to undermi…

“Researchers should be free to pursue lines of inquiry and the communication of knowledge and ideas without fear of repression or censorship. At the same time, they have the ethical obligation to uphold intellectual integrity and avoid preventable harms that may arise in the course of research or its communication.”

Alternatively, it could be saying a lot of bullshit gets published because people are incentivized to publish crap research (see replication crisis). So, if you know it’s crap and it’s also likely to be harmful perhaps consider before you publish it.

And that’s the thing, if you assume the worst interpretation possible you can be offended by anything.

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