Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price • Hacker News Board

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#501

Post by f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:28 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #206

sammalloy wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm under the impression that the service part of the dealership _is_ the profitable part If you drive a Ford, sure, it needs a lot of service. Which is why I stopped buying Ford. Toyota and Honda don’t need much service, and I don’t see how they are money makers for the dealer. And when you move to EV, you need even less service than before since the is no ICE to maintain.

> Toyota and Honda don’t need much service, and I don’t see how they are money makers for the dealer Well first off, people like buy that marketing stuff hook line and sinker, so they make more on the sale. Second, pretty much any vehicle that rolls on earths surface is going to need stuff serviced in proportion to how close it is to the ground. For cars this means the dealer can make plenty of money selling brake pa…

Consumer Reports testing consistently rate Asian car brands above American brands in terms of reliability.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#502

Post by stutsmansoft » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

spikels wrote: post #334

medler wrote: post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

Ford reorganized back in March so that their EV business (Model e) is separate from the legacy ICE business (Ford Blue). There was speculation at the time that this was in part free itself of the dealership sales model. The dealers would keep the dying ICE business while the fast growing EV business would start with clean slate. Farley was quoted describing the EV sales model as: > "It's going to be much more efficie…

The dealers brought it on themselves...many of them actively disincentivize EV purchases when you try to buy one.

Why? They want to protect that recurring service bay revenue. Oil changes, plugs, belts, etc.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#503

Post by f0xJtpvHYTVQ88B » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

dnndev wrote: post #241

sircastor wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll second this from a privileged position. I own a late model Land Rover, and if I take it down to the dealer to solve something, they treat me very well and put me in a very nice lounge while I wait. It’s a first class experience. I don’t think I’d get as nice attention from a non-luxury dealer though.

I would rather they pickup my car fix it and return it. To me that is luxury. Forcing me to go to your location and waiting on you is not convenient.

What about a loaner while your car is being fixed?

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#504

Post by supportlocal4h » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #127

paxys wrote: post #39

A lot has been said about the dealership model in the last few years, and the almost universal consensus is that it is an unnecessary and predatory industry and all auto makers should just sell cars directly like Tesla does. That being said, is there any counterpoint to this view? Are there any benefits that dealerships offer today over direct sales? What would we lose if we got rid of every dealership? If there is t…

When I see "No Haggle, Fixed-Price, Online Only", I think "Rip Off", and I can't be the only one. It's not that I enjoy haggling with car salesmen, walking out the door and getting hunted down in the parking lot like an animal... I don't... in fact I hate it. But at the end of the day I get a deal I'm satisfied and comfortable with - and it's always below MSRP - far below. I think what we're seeing here is a combinat…

You haggle over most things that cost more than $50,000 because those things are unique and their value is subjective.

I don't haggle over the price of gasoline or milk. It's not because the price is low. It's because the identical product is available from a dozen local merchants and I know which is cheapest or which has the best lit parking lot or which has self-checkout. Price becomes so standard that merchants try to compete in other ways. And for those that do choose to compete on price, $0.05 difference on a $5 item is a big gap.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#505

Post by wfhordie » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

m348e912 wrote: post #302

medler wrote: post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

>>Target could have gone away, but they didn't. They bolted on an e-commerce platform and then they used their physical store to add groceries and return -- make returns really much easier than Amazon. I know this is off-topic, but the easiest return I ever made was an amazon return. I went through the return process on amazon's website and was given a QR code which took a few mins. I drove to the nearest Kohls, walk…

> I know this is off-topic, but the easiest return I ever made was an amazon return

Well sure. That’s because they have enough money to just toss whatever you returned in a landfill.

You got your money back, and we all pay in environmental damage.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#506

Post by lttlrck » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

thaeli wrote: post #317

toomuchtodo wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diplomacy is the art of saying “good dog” until you make it to the rock. Ford is learning what Tesla knew from the start: dealership interests aren’t aligned with EV manufacturers. There’s very little service revenue, and dealers are incentivized to add “market adjustments” to vehicles (which Ford dealers have been doing) creating a poor customer experience. Ford has existing dealerships and is going to have a heck o…

Is there really that much service revenue for modern ICE cars that isn't stuff BEV cars need too? Modern powertrains are pretty bulletproof, 10k oil changes and 30k air filters will get you to 100k miles. "Tune ups" aren't really a thing anymore either, especially in the first 100k. Brakes? Maybe you're cutting out one or two pad slaps in that 100k. Oil changes? Yeah, you've eliminated those, the lowest margin servic…

my car tells me to take it for service minimum once a year, for maintenance that's going to cost $500-$800 depending on the alternating schedule. 2-3 hours in the bay max. It's mostly visual, filters and fluids... material costs are small.

If there are problems, it'll be $170/hour plus parts...

A lot of people just do what the computer says and take it to the dealer. The workshop is always full... it has about 20 bays.

That's a lot of income for the dealership. If you drive a lot it'll be more than one a year...

I do as much maintenance as I can myself. If it's something I cannot manage (last year I had a split hose on the transmission radiator line) I take it to an independent shop.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#507

Post by tremon » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #452

devy wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe going direct is the secret plan, but I don’t see how they get there. Yeah, the dealership and the state level dealership associations aren't going to go out of business without some good fight. Even though I personally don't like the markup to be paid at the dealerships, but they exist for some good reasons: educate the consumers, financing, DMV paperwork and most importantly service your vehicles. EVs need m…

- educate the consumer The last two cars I bought the salesperson knew nothing about the cars. People can learn much more about cars by going to a web site than talking to a sales person. - DMV Paperwork Dealerships charge consumers for the privilege of submitting DMV paperwork. This could all be handled online. Don’t understand the benefit. - service your vehicle I go to independent mechanics. They service my vehicl…

Dealerships have got to go. They’re a huge waste of time space and money

I see value in having a local showroom where prospective buyers can test-drive several models to evaluate their driving experience. I don't think I'd ever buy a car without being able to sit in it beforehand.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#508

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #465

wenc wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a fairly reliable ICE car from 2009 with ~100k miles, and I've had to get servicing for belts, water pump, brake pads, sway bars, oil changes, etc. I estimate I spent about $5k over the life the car on servicing. That's excluding tires, wiper blades and air filter changes. Owners of less reliable ICE cars probably spend more.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles. I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k. Of course, the part no one talks about: 1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range? 2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

> How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range?

Stopping for a meal, bathroom, and stretch break every 300 miles or so?

> Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

I'd typically buy a new ICE car before the 400k kilometers cited, as repair costs accelerate, so this isn't really a significant difference.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#509

Post by throwaway0a5e » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #465

wenc wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a fairly reliable ICE car from 2009 with ~100k miles, and I've had to get servicing for belts, water pump, brake pads, sway bars, oil changes, etc. I estimate I spent about $5k over the life the car on servicing. That's excluding tires, wiper blades and air filter changes. Owners of less reliable ICE cars probably spend more.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles. I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k. Of course, the part no one talks about: 1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range? 2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

> It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles.

My observation is that it depends on the brand of the car. If it's a Toyota or Honda, or other well to do brand that people with credit scores reminiscent of FDA minimum cooking temperatures cannot afford it's the owner's fault that the timing belt snapped at exactly six miles more than the recommended change interval, they should have got it done proactively.

If it's a Nissan, GM or Chrysler then it's obviously the car's fault that it needs a fair number of suspension parts after spending 120k being fully sent over rural gravel roads with 300lb of tools in the trunk.

This pattern of double standards that absolves "things that should be nice" from blame when they fail to meet those expectations and blames more modest products even when their failures are reasonable can be seen across many classes of products, not just cars.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#510

Post by ryathal » Fri, Jun 03, 2022, 1:45 PM UTC

thaeli wrote: post #317

toomuchtodo wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diplomacy is the art of saying “good dog” until you make it to the rock. Ford is learning what Tesla knew from the start: dealership interests aren’t aligned with EV manufacturers. There’s very little service revenue, and dealers are incentivized to add “market adjustments” to vehicles (which Ford dealers have been doing) creating a poor customer experience. Ford has existing dealerships and is going to have a heck o…

Is there really that much service revenue for modern ICE cars that isn't stuff BEV cars need too? Modern powertrains are pretty bulletproof, 10k oil changes and 30k air filters will get you to 100k miles. "Tune ups" aren't really a thing anymore either, especially in the first 100k. Brakes? Maybe you're cutting out one or two pad slaps in that 100k. Oil changes? Yeah, you've eliminated those, the lowest margin servic…

Using my experience with a ICE Chevrolet from 20k-120k miles basically nothing big happened before 100k, especially nothing that wouldn't happen in an EV. One set of tires replaced, front brakes, and a couple tire alignments. I did transmission fluid and spark plugs at 100k, and had a catalytic converter replaced and a coolant leak after 100k. None of that went to a dealership though.