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Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

thewalrus.ca

501–510 of 518 posts

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's shocking that we subsidize farmers at all. If we want people to afford food, we could just give that money to the people.

It's really not shocking. Those people could then possibly buy entirely imported food if it was cheaper and wipe out domestic agricultural. Ensuring domestic food production is geopolitics 101, above domestic energy production. A nation doesn't want its bellies depending on a foreign adversary. You aren't a sovereign nation then.

You're right. That said there are other ways to get around cheeper imported food. Why not raise the tariffs?

I just generally find it surprising that the US subsidizes an industry. It feels against the countries ideals, and I think the subsidies decrease the industry's incentives for innovation.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some short perspectives, if simplistic: Marx was basically just inspired by French Revolution idea of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" and dismayed that it didn't work out. He came to some real insights about why capitalism doesn't achieve that vision. He changed his views over time and wrote strongly about cases where he was wrong. He didn't want anyone to idolize him in some static way or be "Marxist". He actually w…

While we're at it, there's a persistent belief that all socialist (in the proper sense of the word) left is Marxist. This is wrong - not even all statist socialists are Marxist, and the vast majority of libertarian ones are not, although they may subscribe to specific notions (like LTV).

I’m willing to learn more, as mentioned, but the fact that there are still schools that believe in the labor theory of value isn’t doing much to sway my preconceptions. Labor is valuable/an important ingredient for determining value, but there’s clearly labor which has no value (banging two rocks together), material which has value despite the lack of labor used to obtain it (water, land), labor which is only valuable in specific contexts, etc. The traditional labor theory of value which is used to argue that all profit is exploitation is I think both outdated and wrong.

I’d be most interested in any socialist schools which explicitly reject the labor theory of value, at least in its original form, and factor in the importance of price discovery and value added from intellectual labor and competent social organization. I’d also be interested in schools which, to the extent they have any recommendations about different ways of organizing money more reliant on social institution, think in game theoretical terms about how to properly balance the incentives of those social institutions and prevent corruption. At that point I suppose it’d be less about economics and more about politics, but what characterizes most socialist schools of economics is the call for social institutions to regulate run away effects of capitalism described by the theory, and I’d be interested in how such institutions might be constructed to be resilient against both stagnation and corruption.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're at it, there's a persistent belief that all socialist (in the proper sense of the word) left is Marxist. This is wrong - not even all statist socialists are Marxist, and the vast majority of libertarian ones are not, although they may subscribe to specific notions (like LTV).

I’m willing to learn more, as mentioned, but the fact that there are still schools that believe in the labor theory of value isn’t doing much to sway my preconceptions. Labor is valuable/an important ingredient for determining value, but there’s clearly labor which has no value (banging two rocks together), material which has value despite the lack of labor used to obtain it (water, land), labor which is only valuabl…

Well, I agree completely with everything you say in this comment.

Skimming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#Karl_Mar... and https://davidharvey.org/2018/03/marxs-refusal-of-the-labour-... and such trying to make sense of the "Labor Theory of Value" and Marx, it seems clear that Marx never even supported the idea let alone had it as a foundational principle. But I find trudging through what Marx actually said or wrote not enjoyable or worthwhile generally.

In the end, it doesn't matter what Marx said or not, what matters is whether specific ideas have merit. I'm pretty sure I would not agree with everything Marx did actually say. The point is that it is completely irrelevant who said something, which is why the trend to label the source as a way to dismiss things is such a problem intellectually.

I haven't heard anything from Varoufakis that seems like BS along the lines of Labor Theory of Value. Everything I've heard from him is pretty solid. But that doesn't mean I stand by anything you ever get from him. IMO, it's useful to have good sources, but not so useful to make a big deal over aligning with any particular dogmatic school of thought. Making up one's mind to be a somethingist is a way to get away from curiosity and feel like you just already understand everything. The utility in such labels is just to help communicate in cases where shared label understanding actually exists.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven't? All I have been hearing for the last 2 years are minimum wage going to 15, and now 18 is the next target.

Minimum wage is de-facto 15, with Amazon offering at least that everywhere. Now we see additional requests for increase. This will never stop. The problem is not with the minimum wage amount, it's with helping people getting off of that, minimum wage should be a temporary stopgap in a person's life. Living on minimum wage sucks hard, no matter the amount. If you increase it, you will only have more people living on m…

This isn't even true statistically: https://www.statista.com/statistics/238997/minimum-wage-by-u...

Minimum wage isn't what is driving inflation. It's insane to me that folks think inflation will happen if we increase wages, when it happens regardless of that. It has more to do with the crazy subsidies / handouts we give to the top 1%.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're at it, there's a persistent belief that all socialist (in the proper sense of the word) left is Marxist. This is wrong - not even all statist socialists are Marxist, and the vast majority of libertarian ones are not, although they may subscribe to specific notions (like LTV).

I’m willing to learn more, as mentioned, but the fact that there are still schools that believe in the labor theory of value isn’t doing much to sway my preconceptions. Labor is valuable/an important ingredient for determining value, but there’s clearly labor which has no value (banging two rocks together), material which has value despite the lack of labor used to obtain it (water, land), labor which is only valuabl…

LTV doesn't claim that any labor creates value in any context, but rather that all value is created by labor - i.e. it recognizes the distinction between productive and non-productive labor. From there then follows that if those who performed the productive labor to create the value don't receive the fullness of what they created, it is exploitation.

(Note, by the way, that this should account for all labor involved in production, including management. The common objection to charges of exploitation is that business owners do create value, and it's valid - to the extent that do, in fact, create it, as opposed to contributing resources that were acquired through similar exploitation from some other creator. Thus, a business owner who is not involved in any managerial decisions, but rather delegates it all to a hired manager, derives their entire income from exploitation; but for a manager-owner, the part of the income that they would receive for the same performance as a hired manager cannot be considered exploitation.)

Note that LTV is not necessarily a leftist thing, at least as "left" is usually understood today. For example, Lysander Spooner promoted policies, many of which would be considered radical right-wing libertarianism today - but he based it all on his understanding of LTV and ownership of wealth that one produces.

It's also not contradictory to price discovery via markets. Left-wing libertarianism includes free market variations thereof. In fact, some of them emphasize the free market as the foundational concept for a truly egalitarian society, and criticize capitalism on the basis that it is anti free market, and this is exactly what makes exploitation possible to begin with - see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_anarchism (but keep in mind that not all left libertarians who subscribe to such ideas are anarchists).

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re in a room with no windows in space in zero gravity with a table glued to one of the “floors” you’ll perceive anything else as being up, because up / down is a perception that exists outside of gravity. When people discuss the gravitational pull of the moon on the earth no one discusses whether or not the moon is facing up or down.

I don't really disagree enough to bother arguing. But my thermometer analogy is still the same. You can create situations in which thermometers do indeed show something that actually is an indication of something and that something isn't heat. Thermometers are used to measure heat though. Anyway, I'll just accept your points. When I tried to think of an analogy that was as silly as "inflation has nothing to do with p…

> I don't really disagree enough to bother arguing.

Cheers, it’s been an interesting conversation that actually went on far longer than I actually anticipated.

> But my thermometer analogy is still the same. You can create situations in which thermometers do indeed show something that actually is an indication of something and that something isn't heat. Thermometers are used to measure heat though.

You make a good point here.

> When I tried to think of an analogy that was as silly as "inflation has nothing to do with price" I failed. I can't think of anything as wrongly silly apparently.

Ironically I completely agree that inflation and price are inseparable. To be honest I couldn’t think of an adequate analogy either, it is just silly, everything is a bit ridiculous right now, and it feels a bit absurd that it even needs to be stated that inflation is in fact inseparable from prices.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not shocking. Those people could then possibly buy entirely imported food if it was cheaper and wipe out domestic agricultural. Ensuring domestic food production is geopolitics 101, above domestic energy production. A nation doesn't want its bellies depending on a foreign adversary. You aren't a sovereign nation then.

You're right. That said there are other ways to get around cheeper imported food. Why not raise the tariffs? I just generally find it surprising that the US subsidizes an industry. It feels against the countries ideals, and I think the subsidies decrease the industry's incentives for innovation.

That's going in the opposite direction with respect to where you would like food prices to be. It's the same final outcome you're concerned with about foreign production. Food is a bare necessity for a country's people and you want those prices as low as possible. Most places make a sales tax exception on groceries for this reason. People will allow dictators to seize power if it means they don't starve. But the same direction applies in less extreme situations. With US inflation already at 7.5%, good luck stopping food subsidies, adding food taxes (tariffs), and seeing food prices lurch another 30%. Current politicians would be voted out in a flash.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m willing to learn more, as mentioned, but the fact that there are still schools that believe in the labor theory of value isn’t doing much to sway my preconceptions. Labor is valuable/an important ingredient for determining value, but there’s clearly labor which has no value (banging two rocks together), material which has value despite the lack of labor used to obtain it (water, land), labor which is only valuabl…

Well, I agree completely with everything you say in this comment. Skimming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#Karl_Mar... and https://davidharvey.org/2018/03/marxs-refusal-of-the-labour-... and such trying to make sense of the "Labor Theory of Value" and Marx, it seems clear that Marx never even supported the idea let alone had it as a foundational principle. But I find trudging through what Marx act…

Yes, 100% agree about avoiding dogma. Have had that same complaint about certain Austrians, despite finding a lot of it sensible. You’ve definitely convinced me to branch out and check out Varoufakis. I should really try to trudge through Das Kapital at some point as well, given the importance and the seeming misinterpretations. I’ve heard enough people talk about the core ideas and have read books that gave what seemed a decent summary, but I should really slog through the original source.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m willing to learn more, as mentioned, but the fact that there are still schools that believe in the labor theory of value isn’t doing much to sway my preconceptions. Labor is valuable/an important ingredient for determining value, but there’s clearly labor which has no value (banging two rocks together), material which has value despite the lack of labor used to obtain it (water, land), labor which is only valuabl…

LTV doesn't claim that any labor creates value in any context, but rather that all value is created by labor - i.e. it recognizes the distinction between productive and non-productive labor. From there then follows that if those who performed the productive labor to create the value don't receive the fullness of what they created, it is exploitation. (Note, by the way, that this should account for all labor involved…

Yeah, I get that there are more sensible variations of the LTV, but I still subscribe to a more utility and relativity based view. I think labor is almost always a core ingredient in effecting supply and adding utility, but I think the core determinant of value is supply and relative utility.

Also agree about it not being a left wing thing and acknowledge that left wing ideas are all not anti free market.

Re: Have we been thinking about inflation all wrong?

#510
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austrian theories appeal to me/seem correct beyond just a kernel, but I’d consider myself an amateur/haven’t read enough to be confident about my opinion. Specifically, the emphasis on relative value seems correct, the emphasis on the importance of keeping pricing signals pure/unaffected by artificial monetary supply changes to effectively allocate resources seems correct, the argument that market incentives exist fo…

You might like the work of George Selgin. He's an Austrian economist, but not of the 'Internet Austrian' persuasion. He's done lots of work on the history of money and banking.

Thanks, will check him out as well.
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