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Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

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Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#501
post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US we don't have "capitalism", we have "crony capitalism" The real world system for which the term “capitalism” was coined, was, is, and always has been crony capitalism; the idea of a non-crony capitalism is a utopian fairy tale that was invented to justify real-world capitalism which has never resembled it.

The idea of "freedom" and inalienable rights are also utopian fairy tales. There's a reason the guys that wrote the Constitution called it "a more perfect union". We aren't perfect, by we may strive for that ideal.

> The idea of "freedom" and inalienable rights are also utopian fairy tales.

No, they are normative ideals, not fantastical models of how interactions do, or even could, work. Entirely different class of things, even if you disagree with them.

(It's true that people build utopian fairy tales out of them, such as the idea that a society observing certain complexes of multiple and conflicting rights without any tradeoff between them can exist. But the ideas of the rights themselves aren't the utopian fairy tales, they are just a value function.)

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how you'd extract a human heart from a willing human donor without killing the donor. I'm also curious how you'd similarly prepare the human donor in any way to meaningfully reduce the chances of rejection, like genetic modification.

Am I reading this wrong? Isn't this how you'd do it? > As of 2018, the most common procedure is to take a functioning heart, with or without both lungs, from a recently deceased organ donor (brain death is the standard) and implant it into the patient. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_transplantation

There simply are not enough compatible donors to meet the demand. With an emphasis on "compatible"

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how you'd extract a human heart from a willing human donor without killing the donor. I'm also curious how you'd similarly prepare the human donor in any way to meaningfully reduce the chances of rejection, like genetic modification.

Organ donors

The last time I checked, we were already recruiting organ donors at the DMV. How do you suppose we go about increasing the (currently small) number without resorting to unethical means?

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t sense hostility outside the typical vocal minority. Having straddled the FDA-regulated world and the libertarian-leaning internet cultures through the aughts and teens, my experience is that the internet libertarians are simply ignorant of how the FDA actually serves us. Pretty typically libertarian—freedom as long as nothing gets more dangerous. Kind of like rebellious children.

The fda is responsible for keeping hearing aids at insane prices my entire life. They serve as the gatekeepers for a cartel of once manufacturers, now IP holders (pure rent seekers,) who have successfully used the US government to exploit one of the most overlooked and vulnerable classes of people. Almost everyone loses hearing when they're older. When you live with hearing loss, it leads to social isolation and emba…

Why don't you just take a vacation to another country and buy a much cheaper hearing aid there?

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t sense hostility outside the typical vocal minority. Having straddled the FDA-regulated world and the libertarian-leaning internet cultures through the aughts and teens, my experience is that the internet libertarians are simply ignorant of how the FDA actually serves us. Pretty typically libertarian—freedom as long as nothing gets more dangerous. Kind of like rebellious children.

The fda is responsible for keeping hearing aids at insane prices my entire life. They serve as the gatekeepers for a cartel of once manufacturers, now IP holders (pure rent seekers,) who have successfully used the US government to exploit one of the most overlooked and vulnerable classes of people. Almost everyone loses hearing when they're older. When you live with hearing loss, it leads to social isolation and emba…

I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time hearing and dealing with all this BS. Sending a firm but warm internet handshake your way. I don't have an answer to your issues and am here to listen if you need someone to vent to.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#506
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the FDA will insert itself to regulate medicine wherever it can. For example, the FDA has been pushing to regulate diagnostic tests as medical devices. It’s funny how Americans surrender medical autonomy to the government but draw a strict line in the sand in other issues

I have a weird muscle disease that is treated with just taking over the counter L-Carnitine. The issue, vitamins and supplements are not regulated. So, I will try to take a new brand and after a few days my symptoms will come back because the pills don't have the L-Carnitine like it says and there is no one to make sure it does. It will cost me four to seven days of pain, and no one is held responsible. My best guess…

> So, I will try to take a new brand and after a few days my symptoms will come back because the pills don't have the L-Carnitine like it says and there is no one to make sure it does.

Unlikely. What's more likely is that something else interferes with the absorption.

Anyway, don't just take my word at face value, have a sample tested: liquid chromatography can give you an answer quickly. Also, don't buy on amazon where cheap fakes and inventory comingling make the problem unsolvable.

Grab a monster energy drink: content in L-Carnitine is guaranteed,

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#507
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get talk about people "feeling" the person from whom they received the transplant inside them? If so, how would a pig seem?

People talk about a lot of things. God, ghosts, karma. No evidence it isn't anything other than psychological.

Even if it is psychological, it's a valid question how people will respond. Really there are a lot of ways people might think about it. I imagine it might change some recipients views on pork. And I wouldn't be surprised if some reported a connection to the pig from which it came similar to human transplants. Whether it's objectively real or not

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#508

I've said this before here and got downvoted for it, but bioethicists as a profession are responsible for more death than pretty much anything else I can quickly think of. People are dying from heart disease all the time, very often in predictable conditions. Literally millions every year. Statistically this means we should hear about such failed procedures many many more times than we do now - there is literally no…

I find this to be a strange take.

>Moderna had the mRNA vaccine for Covid ready in about 3 weeks. This means the tech was already there

Not quite. While this line of research has been occurring for some time, it wasn't quite at that point yet. It wasn't developed and not being used because testing them would be considered unethical. It was developing technology, and Covid came at an opportune time in that things were close enough for researchers to rush things along.

>But no, we needed a pandemic and 10 months of testing to start using it, because it wasn't "ethical".

Yes, we did need testing before we started using it. It could make everyone sick for all we know. Or perhaps only a select few populations. Testing also allows guidance to be developed on what expect, and what doctors need to look out for. If it were to cause bleeding in people with a certain blood type, for example, then just giving it out would result in huge numbers of people rushing to already overworked ER rooms. Which could just worsen the health crisis we were trying to avoid. There are many good reasons to test treatments even when time is limited

>We as a society shy away from doing things which we _know_ would save more lives in the aggregate because we'd have to risk causing much less harm, but harm which we'd be directly responsible for.

Y I'll take this logic further and say why not do some DNA alteration experiments on babies? We may have to destroy the specimens after, but so what? A finite number of lives can lead to saving countless lives in the future. Think of the things we could learn about rare diseases, removing harmful genes, improving human health, etc. The millions, even billions of lives we could save and enrich. It's immoral NOT to do that, when the rewards are so great.

That's the line of thinking that doctors try to avoid, hence "do no harm". It doesn't matter how common sense it seems, some lines you just don't cross. Because if people do cross those lines, eventually some might use it to justify doing immoral things. There's certainly a lot of rigorous debate about medical ethics, but these decisions are the results of groups of doctors and ethicicts. I'm of the belief that the alternatives have indeed been considered in most cases and the best choice has been made.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Dogs are pets” is one of those cultural background assumptions that can be pretty jarring when you realize it’s not a universally held belief. There are pretty large chunks of the planet where dogs are mostly unwanted pests at best.

Muslims use dogs as pets, so it's not argument here.

It’s not a religious thing, it’s a geographic thing. Wild dogs are a serious problem in some areas, and whether or not dogs are viewed as common pets varies wildly. To pick one example, a mere 16 million homes in India have a dog, and that is up a lot over the past decade. Compare that to the 63 million homes with dogs in the US, a much smaller country by population.

Re: Two weeks later David Bennett is alive, his pig’s heart beating soundly

#510
post #508

I've said this before here and got downvoted for it, but bioethicists as a profession are responsible for more death than pretty much anything else I can quickly think of. People are dying from heart disease all the time, very often in predictable conditions. Literally millions every year. Statistically this means we should hear about such failed procedures many many more times than we do now - there is literally no…

I find this to be a strange take. >Moderna had the mRNA vaccine for Covid ready in about 3 weeks. This means the tech was already there Not quite. While this line of research has been occurring for some time, it wasn't quite at that point yet. It wasn't developed and not being used because testing them would be considered unethical. It was developing technology, and Covid came at an opportune time in that things were…

I follow your arguments, but I just find them incredibly weak.

We're not talking about slippery slope here and "may have beens", we're talking about already having a soft form of worst case scenario, and _still_ not bringing out the big guns. Not doing challenge trials for Covid is just stupid, no matter how you try to push it.

"DNA alteration experiments on babies" - we do that, actually, and I'm seriously considering waiting on having a family until they become mainstream. It's a pretty cool tech, they had the first designer baby out last year. Just putting the scariest form you can think of in writing isn't an argument in itself, you know. You also have to say why it's a bad idea. Otherwise, no offense and please don't take it personally, but it's purely equivalent of somebody saying 200 years ago: "what's the next step, feeding MOLD to BABIES?". Turns out yes, feeding mold to babies is exactly what we're supposed to do. It's just progress - it looks weird until it's in the kitchen cabinet.

The mRNA vaccine not being ready - it's just incredibly improbable that you had three major corporations being able to "rush things along" and finish exactly at the same time. It's 10x to 100x more probable that they were already finished and stuck at some regulatory step.

And a final thought - please don't interpret my comments to say testing and regulation in general is bad. FDA is bad, and probably should be destroyed outright and something else, something much leaner, built instead. But some regulation and a lot of testing are of course necessary. It's just that currently 1. they've gone waaaay beyond what's needed and into pure bureaucracy and 2. the system is such that it ignores major slices of reality and focuses only on what's in front of their eyes, i.e. they don't do challenge trials because it's not ethical for the volunteers, but if they lead to 1% less death overall this means tens to hundreds of thousands saved - which they ignore.

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