YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#501

Post by ddingus » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #256

BitwiseFool wrote: post #6

I really hope this backfires spectacularly on YouTube and the zealots who pushed for this change are held professionally accountable. I already click on fewer videos in search results and recommendations because I can no longer gauge how worthwhile they are to try and watch. The end result? I'm sticking to my current channels. I can't be alone and knowing that YouTube takes recommended content so seriously, I have to…

I think hanging out in places like this is drastically altering your perception of how much anybody noticed or cared about this change.

I agree and do take time to ask others about this stuff.

Right now, I enjoy having a broad mix of people, young, old, men, women... to talk to. One thing I love is when they bring me stuff to discuss.

The trick is to express an interest and make those conversations fun, real gives and takes.

The numbers on people seeking news outside the established media are pretty high.

YT and the White House did that public beta and that was noticed! Brought to me by others who probably would not otherwise.

"Why hide dislikes for POTUS?"

Why indeed!

The people saying few care about the details like the HN crowd usually does are not wrong.

But there is more to this than that.

Discussing whether dislikes is useful to understand potential video quality is a mixed bag like proponents of that idea say. And in some instances, say for how to videos, it is a great metric, like those proponents say too.

A higher order look at this is more like what normies are into.

They ask how come this became an issue after POTUS, CNN and Fauci got ratioed non stop?

They ask, "who decides what is misinformation? Is it the same people getting RussiaGate wrong for years, and who always seem excited about endless wars?"

I can make a case for how hanging out here alters perceptions in like kind.

Maybe more people talking outside their comfort zone, with a more diverse set of people and contexts is a good thing. Having done it for a while, I sure think so.

People do not care too much about the details. They care a lot about being managed, essentially told they need to be guided in this way.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#502

Post by bellyfullofbac » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #403

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I wonder if a campaign to tell everyone to go and dislike every video they watch would gain traction. The same way Google destroyed this metric for viewers, it would destroy the usefulness for creators. Act of petty revenge for sure, and they'll probably remove you from their fiefdom for being a troll.

Why would anyone join that campaign? That would only hurt the creators they follow and damage their recommendations.

If there's enough traction, the creators would start complaining to YouTube, and they'd have to rethink it.

Also it would confuse creators: is this video shit, or is it the campaign?

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#503

Post by ddingus » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

caconym_ wrote: post #370

jasode wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The primary signals I use to judge the worth of a video are 1) its prominence in search results, This is not as good a signal because for many long-tail videos, the topmost video in the search results has a bad dislike-to-like ratio. >and 2) the video itself. This is not efficient use of time for the viewer because the point of a quick statistic is to avoid watching the video in the first place. >This is because dis…

The problem with this discussion is that (presumably) neither of us will ever have the data to back up our position. We can only disagree based on how we ourselves use YouTube, and maybe how we've observed friends and family using it. So what is the point? Unlike a lot of people I've discussed this with, I can at least respect your position as being based in some kind of believable and relatively well-developed use c…

They care because none of this seemed to matter until the White House and then the big media, who is being tagged as authoritative despite getting a lot wrong, were ratioed consistently.

People asked why disliking POTUS matters now, when it didn't before.

People asked why big media gets to fact check everyone, despite obvious, daily bias and error, and dislikes are hidden for them and this helps everyone how exactly?

People noticed some creators are widely disliked consistently, yet enjoy consistent promotion. They noticed money seems to matter.

Creators who generate many ratioed videos are different from those who don't, or who have a mix of some kind too.

All of these were brought up in discussion, brought to me by normies basically unable to buy into the, "you do not need that info because..." line they were given.

And now that they are talking about it, topic of interest, they are wondering about other things, like why their Facebook keeps removing what they thought were private exchanges...

Your bomb shell is watching people lose trust and see less value in all of this than was true a year ago.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#504

Post by uh_uh » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #236

uh_uh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do the unthinkable and just give it a go for a few minutes You do this on a societal level and you waste centuries. There's no need for thousands of people to watch a few minutes of a bad DIY video to conclude that it's crap.

Doesn't seem like society is all that concerned with how much time it wastes watching Youtube videos either way. But, in this situation why wouldn't prioritizing videos with more upvotes not work just as well?

Because you don't know whether the video on the top of the queue is one with like/dislike ratio of 90% or 10%. If it's the latter, you are inclined to get off YouTube and start searching elsewhere.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#505

Post by skinkestek » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #490

skinkestek wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might very well be right and of so these are some good points, but there is a bigger theme here: Many of us who used to defend Google before now don't. Some because Reader. Some because the nymwars/Google+ (the single identity part). Some because Google shuttered Google+ after they had made it the only social network some of us ever liked. Some because Google is sucking the oxygen out of markets and then leaving.…

Google is a big boy/gal/firm, it can defend itself. And there are new fans of G who never ever heard of any of these.

Yep.

But it must be weird to go from everyone supporting and cheering you forward to everyone suspecting you of having something foul in mind again.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#506

Post by emodendroket » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

ddingus wrote: post #501

emodendroket wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think hanging out in places like this is drastically altering your perception of how much anybody noticed or cared about this change.

I agree and do take time to ask others about this stuff. Right now, I enjoy having a broad mix of people, young, old, men, women... to talk to. One thing I love is when they bring me stuff to discuss. The trick is to express an interest and make those conversations fun, real gives and takes. The numbers on people seeking news outside the established media are pretty high. YT and the White House did that public beta a…

It sounds a lot like the people you're talking to are Republican partisans who view most events through that lens.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#507

Post by ddingus » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #506

ddingus wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and do take time to ask others about this stuff. Right now, I enjoy having a broad mix of people, young, old, men, women... to talk to. One thing I love is when they bring me stuff to discuss. The trick is to express an interest and make those conversations fun, real gives and takes. The numbers on people seeking news outside the established media are pretty high. YT and the White House did that public beta a…

It sounds a lot like the people you're talking to are Republican partisans who view most events through that lens.

Not at all.

I have a solid mix, and have cultivated that over a considerable time too. Started a decade ago.

Indies, Dems, GOP, you name it. I enjoy politics and culture. No judgement, just frank talk.

More people than you know find that to be high value and it is not easy.

Those questions are not partisan.

They do speak to class though.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#508

Post by caconym_ » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #478

caconym_ wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this discussion is that (presumably) neither of us will ever have the data to back up our position. We can only disagree based on how we ourselves use YouTube, and maybe how we've observed friends and family using it. So what is the point? Unlike a lot of people I've discussed this with, I can at least respect your position as being based in some kind of believable and relatively well-developed use c…

>The problem with this discussion is that (presumably) neither of us will ever have the data to back up our position. [...] I have no trouble believing that these legitimately bad, long-tail, high downvote count videos exist, but I still see them as exactly what my original comment characterized them as: an edge case. Because the public dislike counts are now gone, examples are hard to find. In any case, here's a scr…

This is all well and good, but—again—what you aren't addressing is the (claimed) negative effects of visible downvote counts, mainly (as I understand it) spurious downvote brigades against relatively small/vulnerable creators. These use cases you and others (claim to) care about so much must be weighed against the (claimed) damage done by continuing to support them, so it's not just a question of live and let live.

When downvote brigades are brought up, the first response is always something along the lines of "all engagement is good" and "downvotes aren't a negative signal in the algorithm", the thrust being that downvotes don't actually hurt creators and they're just being a bunch of crybabies. But it is, frankly, totally incoherent to claim this and then turn around and also claim that downvotes are an important signal for deciding which videos to not watch. I hope you can see the contradiction there.

I point this out, and the next claim they trot out is "downvote brigades are rare to the point of being insignificant". To which I say, well, prove it. Prove it, show me the data, and make the case to me that saving X man-hours of wasted time watching unworthy how-to videos is worth crushing Y creators' nascent careers.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#509

Post by caconym_ » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 8:28 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #500

shadowgovt wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content likely to end up killing someone should be flagged and removed, not community-downvoted.

That particular example may have been exaggerated or extreme, but I think the point still stands. Someone just commented this "check out flat earth videos... they remove all comments that are critical and now with the dislike counter gone i guess the earth is flat.". Indeed. In this case for example it should not be flagged, but down-voted by the community.

I honestly couldn't tell whether that flat earth comment was being ironic or not, but I think it's an interesting case study either way. Is a visible YouTube downvote count really the only thing standing between a meaningful number of people and belief that the Earth is flat?

I don't really buy it.

Re: YouTube deleting comments who criticize their hiding of the dislike count

#510

Post by caconym_ » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

ddingus wrote: post #503

caconym_ wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this discussion is that (presumably) neither of us will ever have the data to back up our position. We can only disagree based on how we ourselves use YouTube, and maybe how we've observed friends and family using it. So what is the point? Unlike a lot of people I've discussed this with, I can at least respect your position as being based in some kind of believable and relatively well-developed use c…

They care because none of this seemed to matter until the White House and then the big media, who is being tagged as authoritative despite getting a lot wrong, were ratioed consistently. People asked why disliking POTUS matters now, when it didn't before. People asked why big media gets to fact check everyone, despite obvious, daily bias and error, and dislikes are hidden for them and this helps everyone how exactly?…

I don't think videos on politicized topics getting "ratioed" is a very good signal of anything in today's political climate. Many, many users are willing to downvote content featuring people and/or organizations they've been told are their enemies, without engaging with the content at all.

In fact, this sort of thing is IMO one of the best arguments for removing downvote counts.

Beyond that, I frankly don't think people should have trust in "platforms" telling them what to think, so if this change wakes up some of the "sheeple" I can only see that as a good thing. I certainly think that taking away a tool that allows people to trivially express their shallow hatred of a thing can only improve the state of discourse and critical thought in society.