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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#501

Post by mattrighetti »

wolverine876 wrote: post #119

I would be very happy if my government did the same. What a relief it would be! It's a public health measure, like public sanitation requirements, and driving a car that meets safety requirements. Unvaccinated people should be free to do whatever they want, short of risking infecting other people. Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins.

> Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins.

I see this used every time, if you pay close attention to the phrase you will notice that it can literally be used every time by every party.

There will be people thinking that you can't limit their "freedom" because a vaccine is out there at this point and those who fears for their lives can take it and forget about the virus (in most cases).

There will be people thinking that unvaxxed people should loose their "freedom" because they apparently have an increasing probability to infect others (which in most cases are vaccinated and would get a mild infection in most cases?).

I personally don't care about my unvaxxed friends, I hang out with them as I've always had and I do respect their choice. But I am biased towards individuals rights than "public health".

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#502

Post by jacquesm »

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

That's not really the problem though. See, no matter how many ICU beds you have, the people going to the ICU are about 40% or so likely to die from COVID and the remainder will recover but will take a very long time to do so and have a significant chance of having long term residual effects and/or complications.

You don't really wish that kind of thing on anybody. So you try to avoid people going to the ICU in the first place (assuming you have a humane government, which unfortunately isn't always the case).

That said, the pandemic has definitely taught a lot of countries that stripping your health care system is probably a bad idea.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#503

Post by bllguo »

serial_dev wrote: post #271
bijant wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only are they forcing the unvaccinated to get the shot, they are also forcing everyone who is fully vaccinated to get booster shots every 6 months for the indefinite future. When the vaccines were first introduced their validity was fixed at 12 months and their was talk about extending it ("because they are so incredibly effective").

Not sure what to say without being labeled an anti vaxxer... I was very sick for a week after each shot. I'm 30, I work from home, I work out, I'm lean and only go out when running in the forest and buy food. I can't possibly know what would happen if I caught covid, but I wish the vaccination (I'm already vaxxed, but I mean the boosters) was my choice. With my reaction to the vaccines, it's two weeks a year guarante…

if this is your body's reaction to the vaccine, what makes you think your chance of getting very sick from actual covid is very low?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#504

Post by vax1nat0r »

atsaloli wrote: post #442

I was born in Soviet Russia, where the party line was: there is no God, there is no Soul, there is no Truth, and truth is what we tell the people. My family came to America to get away from that savage society and to live in a free country, based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion. In communism, the group is all and the individual is nothing. I do not believe it is okay to viol…

My neighbors are political refugees from Russia. They were not allowed to leave and had to escape - they have never been back because of that.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#506

Post by native_samples »

glfharris wrote: post #482
TacticalCoder wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinated people who go out. It is a fact that vaccinated people can still carry and transmit the virus. It is also a fact that in the EU 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people (40% in Spain atm but the number is going up, 50% in Belgium, 60%…

There are more vaccinated people than not, and people with prior health conditions are more likely to be vaccinated so it's not surprising they would be represented in the ITU population.

You'd think so but it's actually the other way around: the people most likely to die are not given vaccines (because there's no point). This can be seen in the UK data where increasing vaccinations causes an increase in deaths in unvaccinated people from non-COVID causes. Clearly that's not a biological link - rather, what's happening is that as the vaccinated population grows, the really sick and dying people get concentrated in the unvaccinated cohort, which then experiences higher death rates.

Data is tricky, especially with something like this.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#507

Post by walkhour »

glfharris wrote: post #482
TacticalCoder wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinated people who go out. It is a fact that vaccinated people can still carry and transmit the virus. It is also a fact that in the EU 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people (40% in Spain atm but the number is going up, 50% in Belgium, 60%…

There are more vaccinated people than not, and people with prior health conditions are more likely to be vaccinated so it's not surprising they would be represented in the ITU population.

That's irrelevant to the points being made. We all know this at this point, it's been said over a thousand times.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#508

Post by throwawaysea »

Bodily autonomy and health privacy are fundamental human rights. No just society should be able to violate a person's body in this manner or coerce them through methods like lockdowns. It is simply not compatible with a free and just society. And I say that as a pro vaccine person with my booster.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#509

Post by MrDresden »

My partner was diagnosed with cervical cancer a couple of months ago and is now on the brink of starting radio- & chemotherapy.

Due to the covid situation here in the Netherlands the treatment may not go ahead as planned, and treatment might get delayed, due to the new measures.

I then know of people who's heart surgaries have been delayed 5x times due to the stress covid is putting on the health care system in another country.

Please, get vacinated/boosted and if possible convince a close one to do too.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#510

Post by jfengel »

atsaloli wrote: post #442

I was born in Soviet Russia, where the party line was: there is no God, there is no Soul, there is no Truth, and truth is what we tell the people. My family came to America to get away from that savage society and to live in a free country, based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion. In communism, the group is all and the individual is nothing. I do not believe it is okay to viol…

based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion

Yeah, that's also an untruth. Western capitalist societies are no more pure capitalism than the Soviet Union was pure communism.

Democracy is fundamentally coercive: the majority gets to rule, and everybody else lives with the result. Some of those rules force people to do things they don't want to do in the name of being able to live together: pay taxes, obey police, obtain permission to operate a motor vehicle. Those who don't obey are subject to force.

It's the worst system except for all of the others. It works best when there's voluntary cooperation, and there's a lot of it. But there are limits to it, and anybody coming to it thinking that they're absolutely free and without obligations and restrictions is going to fare very poorly. Such people force them to pass even more rules to codify what is and isn't allowed, and make the system worse for everybody.

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