California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#501

Post by simion314 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

topspin wrote: post #431

simion314 wrote: post #117

I am not from US so don't interpret my comment trough US blue vs red or similar lenses. My observations is that students learn at different speed, the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious, at each step some student will fall behind, then if he is behind he will have more trouble comprehending the next topic and in the end you get a student that does not know the basic ru…

> My observations is that students learn at different speed The pejorative used for structuring curriculum and resources based on this observation is "tracking" and aside from special needs and other narrow exceptions it is thought to be a great historical injustice that has largely been eliminated from public schooling in the US. Now we look forward to ending the injustice unequal funding due to differential tax bas…

So in my country Romania, we have national exams, then the children will fill a list of high-schools+ profile pair(HighScoolA - Informatics, HighSchoolB -Informatics, HighSchyoolA -Science ....) so mostly you get in same class children that had very similar results at the national exam.

But there still is the children learn at different speed or some are left behind, at least in my son case I feel in Math they move too fast, there was the same when I was in high school too.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#502

Post by gumby » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:33 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”:

1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issue — I think that is likely bull. But what I do recognize is that instead of being pushed to read before the kids are ready, the kids instead learn other valuable life skills. I happened to learn to read at age 5 (not in Germany nor USA) but that didn’t make me “better” than other kids; they did other things.

2 - kids who have parents who can afford tutors and such can push the kids through the prescribed steps sooner. Kids whose parents each have two jobs to get food on the table, well, they simply can’t. So the former define “higher standards” because they chose their parents well?

3 - To combine the two: if we can open up opportunities for all the kids aren’t we likely to end up with a larger pool of well educated people who will end up being the inventors, leaders, poets etc of the future? How many ramanujans are we leaving behind?

I’m not saying “throw out all the standards” but rather quite the opposite. I think your unidimensional absolutism is narrow and inadequate.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#503

Post by simion314 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #414

simion314 wrote: post #117

I am not from US so don't interpret my comment trough US blue vs red or similar lenses. My observations is that students learn at different speed, the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious, at each step some student will fall behind, then if he is behind he will have more trouble comprehending the next topic and in the end you get a student that does not know the basic ru…

"the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious" It's not obvious to the authors of the California Math Framework, who believe that: - we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable - every child should be taught grade-level material (no matter how far behind, or far ahead, they may be) - teachers are capable of successfully…

>we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable

Can you maybe explain to a non US person why a system merit based is not used(or if it was used in the past was dropped) , I understand there are limitation with this system, I will describe next:

1 there is national/state level exam with super strong security to prevent cheating

2 highschool/universities will be placed on a list with all the classes they offer

3 candidates will fill an ordered list with their preferences. In practice this means you put on the top the "good" high schools and the classes/profiles that interest you , like if you hate Math you will avoid science/math stuff and go to art/literature/languages profiles. How I personally ordered the schools was by checking the results of their students at the national exams.

The result is that students that are very smart or that are OK smart but worked hard are concentrated on 3 hghschools in my region. This seems OK sincee the kid that is a really jerk, never liked school or failed the exam will be at a different highschool and not drag down the working hard students.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#504

Post by diffeomorphism » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:39 AM UTC

legerdemain wrote: post #490

abeppu wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being snide and not actually constructive. E.g. here are requirements for molecular and cellular bio at UC Berkeley, which requires a 1 year sequence covering calculus, stats and combinatorics. Linear algebra and differential equations are not requirements. http://mcb.berkeley.edu/undergrad/major/major-requirements/r...

That sounds like it requires a high-school math sequence that prepares students for college calculus, doesn't it? Edit: You hardly contradicted me. My claim was that the math requirements of non-engineering science majors were 0-2 semesters of calculus and a course on statistical methods. You added combinatorics, which I usually just see taught as part of that applied methods course, rather than a stand-alone semeste…

That completely contradicts your point.

> my claim was..

No, it wasn't, but nice try.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#505

Post by leereeves » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #502

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Wealthy parents will still define higher standards, because they will send their kids to private schools where more advanced math is taught (e.g. Phillips Exeter Academy teaches calculus to all students and offers linear algebra, statistics, and discrete math to advanced students.[1]).

Instead of opening up opportunities for all the kids, this will ensure that no poor student can compete because the courses won't even be available.

1: https://www.exeter.edu/mathematics-beyond-core-courses

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#506

Post by jl2718 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:45 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #418

rhino369 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" . . . as a means of promoting equity" and "The intent of the state mathematics framework, its designers say, is to maintain rigor while also helping remedy California’s achievement gaps for Black, Latino and low-income students, which remain some of the largest in the nation. It's Harrison Bergeron Math.

I had to look this up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron "In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, lo…

I heard this story in 5th grade. I remembered it again at DEFCON 22. That guy, Stephen Watt; that’s him. That’s the guy the story was about.

https://youtu.be/TWzvXaxR6us

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#507

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:53 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

If there was a mixed program where you could either choose to have your children under Equitable Math or Common Core (the current standard which is adopted by the majority of US states), that would risk Equitable Math being framed as the way to fall behind. That's why the central contention is not about improving Common Core, but rather about whether all children should always be at the same level.

Sometimes children benefit from a delay, and other children benefit by moving ahead; but all children deserve the opportunity to advance according to their individual math ambition and ability. Under Equitable Math, all children must be at the same level up until the last year.

This is a huge win for private schools and after-school programs such as RSM.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#508

Post by rahimnathwani » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 6:54 AM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #495

rahimnathwani wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider these two statements: A) The differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics. B) Many (most?) people would say the differences are mostly genetic for sports, but not for academics. You seem to be arguing against A (about which I expressed no opinion).

Maybe because B borders on nonsensical?? Like what bizarre circles are you stewing in that you hear "They're great because they inherited the right genes for VO2 max!" more than you hear "They're great because they put in the hard work and effort! That's dedication right there!" And even if we focus on this truly fringe group that you seem to run with, the genetic factors like height are also readily overriden by ine…

I skimmed the paper you linked. It establishes a correlations between nutrition and height. But the analysis specifically adjusted the data 'for age, gender, ethnicity and birth weight', i.e.

- the paper didn't claim that nutrition could fully override genetic factors, and

- they acknowledged that adult height is correlated with ethnicity (hence the need to adjust for ethnicity before calculating correlations)

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#509

Post by rahimnathwani » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 7:16 AM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #503

rahimnathwani wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious" It's not obvious to the authors of the California Math Framework, who believe that: - we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable - every child should be taught grade-level material (no matter how far behind, or far ahead, they may be) - teachers are capable of successfully…

>we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable Can you maybe explain to a non US person why a system merit based is not used(or if it was used in the past was dropped) , I understand there are limitation with this system, I will describe next: 1 there is national/state level exam with super strong security to prevent cheating 2 highschool/universities will be plac…

I moved to the US only 2 years ago, so am still learning about the system. As far as I can tell, the reasons for not using standardized test scores (such as the SAT and ACT) are that:

1. Using only these scores would boost the proportion of elite university places awarded to Asians, who are already 'overrepresented' relative to their share of the population. Propel state various reasons why this is undesirable (equity/diversity, don't want everyone on campus to be 'the same') and unstated reasons (racism against Asians).

2. Blacks and Hispanics are 'underrepresented' at elite colleges relative to their respective shares of the population. The argument here is that these outcomes are prima facie due to 'systemic racism', i.e. not necessarily overt racist acts, but things in the system that together result in worse outcomes for certain ethnic groups.

If you want to read more about these topics, a few starting points:

1. Recent news (and Twitter discussions) about the University of California dropping the SAT.

2. Recent news about Lowell High School switching from partially-merit-based admission, to lottery-based admission. (And the court order from a few days ago, declaring this switch null and void.)

3. Thomas Sowell's books 'Economic facts and fallacies' and 'Charter schools and their enemies'. One of the points in these books (which include data) is that, when you adjust for things like parental educational level, number of parents in home, differences in outcomes between ethnic groups' career success often lessen or disappear altogether.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#510

Post by cblconfederate » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

only possible with online/remote education