“Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says • Hacker News Board

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#501

Post by flerovium » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #172

Zanfa wrote: post #7

A reasonable legal requirement should be that customers are able to unsubscribe using the same method used to subscribe and the process should not require more time and effort than the initial subscription.

Reasonable would be lack payment ending the contract. We should be able to simply stop paying them with zero repercussions. Let them deal with the administrative trivia required to cancel a service.

The problem is that in the US, one cannot easily stop a debit/credit card from being billed for a particular service.

A more general solution is to make the payment infrastructure allow me to ban a particular merchant. You can implement this by reissuing a debit card, but there's no reason not to make it seamless for individual merchants.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#502

Post by eckesicle » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

Meanwhile in Scandinavia:

You are legally entitled to unsubscribe from any contract in any way that is most comfortable to you. [0]

For example, you can:

* send them a letter

* send them an email

* call them and tell anyone who picks up the phone

* write it on a napkin and hand it to an employee

All are equally legit and legally binding.

Companies obviously do not want to deal with the manual overhead, so services typically have an easily accessible button for you to click.

Furthermore, companies are required to notify you at least 1 month before any contract is extended and offer you an easy way to cancel - and if they don't you can cancel at any point and get refunded. [1]

[0] for example in Finland: https://www.kkv.fi/sv/information-och-anvisningar/kop-forsal...

[1] for example in Sweden: https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/svensk-f...

EDIT: Just realised Finland isn't Scandinavian, but oh well :)

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#503

Post by omarhaneef » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

flerovium wrote: post #499

Does this apply to ISPs? If so, this headline is much bigger than it appears. In the US, it can often take a full day to cancel Comcast, Verizon, Spectrum... There are horror stories that require follow up over multiple days. If only laws could fight the administrative burden of insurance companies, healthcare providers, credit bureaus...

And phone service like AT&T. Also my question.

Maybe if they can not force you to take a modem, and then they only cancel it with a physical return. Another dark pattern.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#504

Post by daariomj » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

The Economist Magazine makes it extremely hard to unsubscribe. I had to change my credit card.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#505

Post by slipheen » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #481

Dark patterns aren't just for cancellations. A couple years back, a friend bought me a one year gift subscription for Britbox[0]. When I tried to activate the gift subscription, the site refused to allow me to do so unless I provided them with a credit card number. Which, from a practical standpoint, makes no sense as it was a gift . I wasn't going to provide these wankers with my credit card number[0], so I then had…

That is unacceptable behavior, and I entirely understand you not wanting to condone it.

For people who find themselves in that situation, one practical workaround I've found is using a service like Privacy.com which lets you generate dedicated Visa cards that you can pause or limit charges on

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#506

Post by baby » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

edge17 wrote: post #493

nobody9999 wrote: post #481

Dark patterns aren't just for cancellations. A couple years back, a friend bought me a one year gift subscription for Britbox[0]. When I tried to activate the gift subscription, the site refused to allow me to do so unless I provided them with a credit card number. Which, from a practical standpoint, makes no sense as it was a gift . I wasn't going to provide these wankers with my credit card number[0], so I then had…

This seems to be a common design pattern on iOS App Store as well. Download a 'free' app and don't let the user use the app in trial mode unless they click a button that gets them to sign up, subscribe, or buy some in app purchase.

I really really hate this pattern on iOS. This and the app that is completely filled with ads.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#507

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

onionisafruit wrote: post #223

xg15 wrote: post #167

> including an option that’s “at least as easy” as the one to subscribe Weirdly enough this sounds like a loophole. I can already see some companies trying to bullshit their way through an investigation: "Oh sure, we don't provide online cancellation, because our way to cancel is even easier than online:" * presents a way to cancel that is in practice more difficult than online *. I think either mandating that cancel…

“What’s easier than making a quick phone call? It’s certainly easier than getting internet access, typing a url into a browser address bar, validating a ssl certificate, establishing an http session, authenticating with your credentials then finding and clicking the cancel button.”

[deleted]

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#508

Post by jonnycomputer » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

dfinninger wrote: post #428

JTbane wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most tone-deaf thing I have read today. Logging in to a website is miles easier than waiting hours in a phone queue.

Given the quotes around the parent commenter’s text, I think they are mocking the absurd response of a fictitious company trying to argue that a phone call is easier than a button.

Bingo.

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#509

Post by volgo » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

Humdeee wrote: post #393

strenholme wrote: post #344

Since I live in California, which has a “click to subscribe means you must have click to cancel” regulation, this isn’t an issue for me. After the New York Times published their inaccurate hit piece attacking Scott Alexander and Slate Star Codex/Astral Codex Ten, I was able to cancel online just clicking my way through. I now subscribe to The Wall Street Journal, which looks to be the most neutral newspaper right now…

Hold on here, does that mean that Cancel button only appears based on location?

This is why I always enter a fake address in CA :)

Re: “Click to subscribe, call to cancel” is illegal, FTC says

#510

Post by ausername42027 » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

TomGullen wrote: post #432

Axien wrote: post #347

I use Privacy.com and generate virtual credit card numbers. I cancel the credit card at the time of canceling the service (or at least trying to cancel the service).

Won’t help if you breach contract and they go to collections

exactly. it is really interesting that service even exists. Canceling a privacy.com card does not magically cancel a contract. Privacy.com seems like a great way to trick people into tanking their credit ranking when they think they are getting back at a company for being hard to cancel.