A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#501

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #374

Simon321 wrote: post #131

To people recommending trades, there's nothing wrong with trades, but you can get more out of college than only a job. You can actually learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. The environment also naturally stimulates and values learning, gathering knowledge and understanding. You can learn how to become a better person and think more critically. Seeing how many misinformation is going around and the p…

> You can actually learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. I’m not so sure. Why do you need to pay someone to give you lists of books to read, rather than just buying and reading them yourself?

> Why do you need to pay someone to give you lists of books to read, rather than just buying and reading them yourself?

You don't. However, college isn't just a list of books to read, it also includes practical exercises and, most importantly, accountability mechanisms, and there is plenty of evidence that accountability mechanisms tend to improve performance.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#502

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #448

ransom1538 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to bring up a point often missed with blue collar housing work (plumber, electrician, dry wall, etc). It is EASY to start your own thing. Once you are licensed and bonded you can quickly buy your own truck, hire an apprentice, setup yelp, setup an online receptionist and be overbooked. Right now plumbers are hard to get and electricians are months out. The plumbers I work with cannot keep up with the wor…

> It is EASY to start your own thing. Not withstanding restrictive licensing systems that require you to put in X years working crap jobs for crap pay under someone who already has the license to ensure that you've "paid enough dues" you're not gonna go around undercutting everyone once you get your license.

[deleted]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#503

Post by watwut » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

icare_1er wrote: post #227

zapnuk wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might think the whole sexism and gender roles thing and would be discouraging woman from perusing certain fields.

This famous hoax has been debunked many times. For a start, the countries where women pursue IT and science the most, are the most patriarchists (Turkey, Iran, Algeria, Middle-east, etc...). The more relaxed are gender-roles, the more women choose to study arts and litterature, or "gender studies", the same who then complain that there are not enough women building trains. Second, as many in the west have seen here,…

Yeah, I have seen this about Eastern Europe (Russia) and all it convinced me about what that the author dont understand neither Eastern Europe nor sexism. It counted fiends considered non-technical in Eastern Europe as technical. It counted school of basic administration as technical economy too.

It also assumed that sexism is straight line. In fact, while easter europe is overall more sexist, there are many aspects in which it is less sexist. Some aspects of American sexism are present much less.

The confusion is effectively from American assuming that every single aspect of their country must be superior.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#504

Post by inkblotuniverse » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

sumgocko wrote: post #40

frankbreetz wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am having trouble coming up with a single high paying, no degree required job that is majority female. Please let me know if I am missing some.

Pornstar :)

Really just a specialist type of plumber

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#505

Post by dudul » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #370

dudul wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as extrem for me, but I was told by HR that all female/non-white applicants had to move automatically to the phone screen step, regardless of the resume.

So you're guessing everyone's race/ethnicity and gender identity based on their resume?

Our application form has a required field for LinkedIn profile, so we use the picture/name. If there is no way to make a guess we just treat it as a normal application and review the resume.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#506

Post by kingaillas » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

icare_1er wrote: post #227

zapnuk wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might think the whole sexism and gender roles thing and would be discouraging woman from perusing certain fields.

This famous hoax has been debunked many times. For a start, the countries where women pursue IT and science the most, are the most patriarchists (Turkey, Iran, Algeria, Middle-east, etc...). The more relaxed are gender-roles, the more women choose to study arts and litterature, or "gender studies", the same who then complain that there are not enough women building trains. Second, as many in the west have seen here,…

It's not a hoax, it is call the gender equality paradox.

https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-gir...

Countries with lousy job prospects for women (to sum it up bluntly) see higher STEM participation from women.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#507

Post by watwut » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

aogaili wrote: post #465

aogaili wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was studying software engineering, I met a girl who switched major after the first year. I saw her again once in the lab, and I asked her why did you switch, she said, and I quote her exact words: "why would I sit and code all day when I've this a$$, pointing at her back." I honestly didn't know what to say afterward. Our program had special scholarship for women, and we had only one woman (out of 30 or so) an…

Why the downvote? I don't share her opinion, I'm just sharing an encounter I had. I was really surprised by her response, coming from different culture to the west, both of my parents are engineers. I met several great women developers in my career and I personally think the field will benefit a lot by having more diverse perspectives on the tools being created.

> I met several great women developers in my career

Why is the other one poster child for feminity? I met guys who dropped out of college, because they could not keep grades due to regular whole night gaming.

I met guys who switched out of CS, because they could not pass exams despite trying.

In both gender, you get some amount of irresponsible, disinterested, troublemakers or simply people with too many mental issues to finish any school.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#508

Post by actually_a_dog » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #486

pc86 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you're comparing it to. You can go to a trade school and learn contracting, or be an electrician, or an HVAC installer, and in your late teens and early 20's you'll make a lot more than most college grads. But unless you branch out into your own business your income is capped lower than a generic college grad's probably is. And importantly, those careers are typically hell on your body. I know we a…

> and in your late teens and early 20's you'll make a lot more than most college grads. I question even this. I live in an area of the US without a strong union culture, and known a lot of people in the trades and it doesn’t seem uncommon to see job postings for X apprentice starting at $13-$15 and hour. I could get close to that at a shitty gas station clerk job.

I'd like to see some harder numbers on this, too. I'm from a similar area, but, maybe things are different in other places. It would be great to see the figures adjusted for cost of living.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#509

Post by icare_1er » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #499

icare_1er wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how a women being unable to open a bank account in the 60s, explains why a girl born in 2000, would not want to spend her time geeking on her computer trying to build a website, in 2012. But i'm all ears.

> would not want to spend her time geeking on her computer Well, based on studies I have seen, if the family had only one computer, it waay often in boys room rather then in girls room. PC was assumed to be boys toy. The culture emerges from there. Anecdotally, that is patter I do see around. Parents of young girls are way more often enforcing "no screen till this or that age" while parents of young boys almost brag…

Yes, out of the blue, in all countries, and all cultures, on all continents, parents spontaneously put computers and screen, engines, motors, in kids rooms. What a weird collective behavior ! I'm sure it has nothing to do with the many experiments carried out on children, from the youngest of age, showing that even 2 days after birth, boys and girls had different attractions to moving objecs, or human faces for instance !

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#510

Post by SuoDuanDao » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #394

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #360

Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. Pleased the next generation is waking up. End of the day if the loan can't be written off, if the loan is just handed out to 18 year olds and has almost no limit then the organization that asks for the loan will inevitably balloon out of all proportion and no longer be reflective at all of the value you get ba…

I don't think your conclusion is suggested by the statistics in the article. There is a decline in enrollment, but it is heavily focused on men and white men are even slightly behind other ethnicities. This holds true even for very high household incomes where the ROI on a degree is less important than the social prestige of being in a white collar career. If college was a bad deal, you would see women opting out as…

>If college was a bad deal, you would see women opting out as well.

Not necessarily. Bad deals are generally taken due to deceptive marketing, something that drove a lot of the college applications over the last two generations. If deceptive marketing is still in play but one group, e.g. American men, is no longer being targeted...