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1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

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Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#501

Post by mirkules »

brianpan wrote: post #450
mirkules wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major releases of MacOS and iOS happen once a year. And most of the time they don’t break existing applications (iOS 12 notwithstanding). Almost everything from early iPhone OS to 12, and from 12 onwards worked ok, even with major resolution changes. And the fact that we need to constantly change stuff just for the sake of change is the problem. To add to this: I’m perfectly happy to pay a premium price for software…

That's the point of this thread. YOU only need a new version every 3-4 years so you don't think there's any work any other time. But you take all those platforms and all those extensions and the result is maintenance by itself is constant work. I'm not talking about change for the sake of change. I'm talking about the work just to keep the features that you have. I have personal projects I'm working on where it feels…

You raise a valid point, and certainly then this product is not right for me due to their pricing and the features I’m paying for but never using (like Android and Ubuntu support).

It comes down to what value it provides to me for what I need it to do, which is store and retrieve passwords for me, and sync via wlan. That’s it. Why should I continually pay for Android, Ubuntu or Windows development when I don’t use their app on either of these platforms?

And additionally, as a consumer it’s not my responsibility to find a way for a company to fund its product. Saying “development goes on even without you upgrading, so you have to pay a subscription to support that” is kind of a weird argument, isn’t it. Imagine if you had to pay a subscription for using a car because next year a new model will require development and therefore you need to pay for it.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#502

Post by mynameisvlad »

sngz wrote: post #494
mynameisvlad wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that in general, having a lower barrier of entry to software engineering is a good thing, especially for attracting people that might not have otherwise considered it. Someone wants to build a 5 minute app for themselves and Electron happens to be the easiest way to do it? Go for it, there's nothing stopping them. If that app happens to be useful enough for others to use it, even better, that person jus…

> If the app isn't usable by you (and this is a general you, not specifically directed at you), then the answer is simple: don't use it. Nobody is forcing you to use Electron or any app built with it if you don't want to. > If as a user your needs are not met, whether that's due to sluggishness from Electron, incompatibility from having a native-only solution, whathaveyou, then all you really have to do is wait. A co…

If truly everyone is doing it and you don't have any other option (which is just preposterous, there's an ever increasing number of choices out there) then maybe you're just not the target audience anymore.

Businesses aren't stupid, if a decision were to actively lose them more customers than it'd gain, they wouldn't do it. If every single business and OSS alternative suddenly switched to Electron and you had no other choice, then maybe it's you that is wrong about the value of Electron.

But, of course, that's a ridiculous hypothetical not really grounded in reality. In the real world, plenty of alternatives exist for practically every Electron app out there so if you don't want to use it, you don't have to.

And for every one of you, there's hundreds of people that think their Electron apps are fine and appreciate that they can use the exact same interface regardless of which computer they're using.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#503

Post by nucleardog »

mst wrote: post #264
ValentineC wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm perfectly happy with paying a subscription, and think $4.99/month for 5 people is affordable. What I'm not happy with is the possibility of password access being limited or sync breaking if 1Password servers go down. At least with Dropbox (iCloud, wifi) sync, I have full control over the local vault file. Ultimately, it might be mostly about ownership and choice for me.

I'd vastly prefer to be able to do 'bring your own storage' but for that price I don't really see a problem with that being a "you can do that, but you pay the same subscription price anyway" feature.

If they let me do that (and have more than one local vault) I'd still be using 1Password.

I have no particular qualms with paying for software whether as a one-time purchase or a subscription.

I just don't want all my stuff syncing to and reliant on 1Password's infra.

I'll pay them $5/mo to self-host my own passwords. But they won't let me. So I switched to KeepassXC.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#504

Post by nucleardog »

FreezerburnV wrote: post #212
runlevel1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be ok with paying an annual fee for the app. What I have zero interest in is increasing my attack surface solely for their bottom line. I'm also increasingly uncomfortable with the company handling my passwords engaging in the sort of spin and dark patters we've seen from AgileBits in the past few years.

I'm curious about how you see the attack surface increasing when using 1Password. My knowledge of how it works is that it always stores your passwords in an encrypted blob that can only be decrypted with a combination of username, "master password", and vault password. So no matter if it's in Dropbox, 1Password's servers, or your own hard drive, if anyone obtains a copy of the password file they still have to crack i…

> I'm curious about how you see the attack surface increasing when using 1Password. My knowledge of how it works is that it always stores your passwords in an encrypted blob that can only be decrypted with a combination of username, "master password", and vault password. So no matter if it's in Dropbox, 1Password's servers, or your own hard drive, if anyone obtains a copy of the password file they still have to crack it before they gain access to anything.

_If_ they obtain a copy of my password file.

"My email is nucleardog@nucleardog.example, my password is abcdef12345."

If I'm using 1Password's cloud service I'm... screwed? You now have literally my entire digital life.

If I'm syncing anywhere else, you've got a much bigger task ahead of you. First you have to _find_ where my vault is stored, then you need to gain access to it.

There's an extra layer of security to the way I want to do this. An extra factor of authentication. I don't want the only thing between you and my entire life to be one set of credentials.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#505

Post by Syzygies »

jl_agilebits wrote: post #356
maxharris wrote: post #7

1Password used to be native on the Mac, and now it's an Electron app. I'm not going to be using 1Password for this reason, and I encourage you to do the same. Subscription business models and non-native apps are hallmarks of rot by VCs. Dump them!

Hi. I'm a feature developer for 1Password, and I want to clarify a few things. I've already posted this elsewhere, but I've seen multiple threads spreading misinformation that our technical decisions are being driven by VC funding. This could not be farther from the truth. We have been working on these changes long before we received any form of outside investments. Over the past few years, we've been working on cons…

I'd like to believe this isn't primarily profit motive. What gives me pause is how I write regularly asking for separate vaults for trivial passwords and passwords that could lead to financial ruin. The profit motive wants to keep 1Password simple to use, at the expense of security. I've been forced to buy a second password manager for sensitive passwords.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#506

Post by sngz »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #502
sngz wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the app isn't usable by you (and this is a general you, not specifically directed at you), then the answer is simple: don't use it. Nobody is forcing you to use Electron or any app built with it if you don't want to. > If as a user your needs are not met, whether that's due to sluggishness from Electron, incompatibility from having a native-only solution, whathaveyou, then all you really have to do is wait. A co…

If truly everyone is doing it and you don't have any other option (which is just preposterous, there's an ever increasing number of choices out there) then maybe you're just not the target audience anymore. Businesses aren't stupid, if a decision were to actively lose them more customers than it'd gain, they wouldn't do it. If every single business and OSS alternative suddenly switched to Electron and you had no othe…

> then maybe you're just not the target audience anymore.

i see you're moving the goal post

once you have a monopoly you can do whatever you want, thus why everyone keeps talking about EEE. look at what apple is doing now with photoscanning. What they are doing is inherently bad but they are able ignore everyone and go ahead with it because their "target audience" doesn't care about this kinda stuff. Doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't actively fight against it. your argument basically boils down to let the market and customers decide for itself. Over here there are some of us trying to tell people to not support electron because of the potential consequences, and the downward trend of the web as we see it.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#507

Post by stock_toaster »

jl_agilebits wrote: post #411
neon_electro wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, long-time user, customer, and word-of-mouth recommender of 1Password for the nine years my Hacker News account has been active (give or take a few months). This is a big announcement that I'll have to chew on to understand what this means. Can you quantify the "needless development churn and hassle for both customers and our support team" in some way? Presumably, 1Password 7 and its ancestors used native macOS AP…

> Can you quantify the "needless development churn and hassle for both customers and our support team" in some way? Sure, happy to elaborate on that! Since we were rebuilding our app from the ground up, it was a significant slow-down on development to create a user interface for both Electron and SwiftUI, requiring two separate teams of platform developers for every feature we needed to implement. There were also con…

> requiring two separate teams of platform developers for every feature we needed to implement

So your margins are more important than your users’ native experiences. Got it.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#508

Post by stock_toaster »

Uupis wrote: post #158
leetcrew wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's reasonable to complain about the loss of the native app when one of the key selling points (imo) is the pleasant UI. I don't really understand the almost-automatic hatred of subscriptions. if an app has ongoing development that you benefit from, it seems entirely fair to pay a subscription. the fair alternative is a one time payment for a lifetime license with few patches priced in. I would probably pref…

> if an app has ongoing development that you benefit from, it seems entirely fair to pay a subscription. Agreed. Though, this latest development – the move to Electron – is a negative for me, so it leaves a part of me wondering what kind of development I have been paying for. I imagine I am not alone with such a sense of disappointment.

You are not alone. I will be looking into alternatives/competitors to see how good they are, if nothing else.

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#509

Post by kemayo »

wlesieutre wrote: post #225
geerlingguy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That pushes me even further towards going that route. It looks like it requires an export-than-import though? https://bitwarden.com/help/article/import-from-1password/

It’s not a complete import, you’ll get usernames and passwords but if you’ve done anything else with it (like say attaching software license files, scans of important documents, etc) they’ll be silently dropped. Most record types (software license, wireless router, documents, drivers licenses, email accounts, membership, passports, maybe more) don’t exist in Bitwarden. I’m not sure what happens with all of those, may…

> It’s not a complete import, you’ll get usernames and passwords but if you’ve done anything else with it (like say attaching software license files, scans of important documents, etc) they’ll be silently dropped.

It's not quite a silent dropping -- 1Password warns you with a popup during the export that it doesn't include them in the export file. BitWarden won't warn you, but in its defense the files aren't even present for it to skip...

https://imgur.com/a/cjMbWZT

Re: 1Password 8 will be subscription only and won’t support local vaults

#510

Post by jgimenez »

runlevel1 wrote: post #123
FreezerburnV wrote: post #50

I guess I’m the outlier in being very happy with 1Password and fine with paying for the subscription service. Not only is 1Password the best password manager I’ve used, but it makes it seamless to share stuff with my wife. I don’t care if 8 is an Electron app either, considering I usually interact with it via the browser anyway with their extension. (Also I know that the majority of what they wrote for it is Rust and…

I'd be ok with paying an annual fee for the app. What I have zero interest in is increasing my attack surface solely for their bottom line. I'm also increasingly uncomfortable with the company handling my passwords engaging in the sort of spin and dark patters we've seen from AgileBits in the past few years.

Agreed. In the end 1Password has always been a subscription, just you paid "one-time" upgrades every two years to stay up-to-date with the latest version.

However the differential factor of 1Password, which was that it _didn't_ provide the storage if you didn't want it, has now gone away. Precisely why I chose 1Password when I started using it. I don't see the difference between this and any other password manager now.

There might be security or technical reasons for removing this option, but looking at how hard they've been trying to get me into a subscription during the last couple of years I just think we're on a bad case of subscription-all-the-things here.

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