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One Bad Apple

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Re: One Bad Apple

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised, and honestly disappointed, that the author seems to still play nice, instead of releasing the whitepaper. I'm the author. I've worked with different parts of NCMEC for years. (I built the initial FotoForensics service in a few days. Before I wrote the first line of code, I was in phone calls with NCMEC about my reporting requirements.) Over time, this relationship grew. Some years, I was in face-to-f…

I have no idea whether this statistic is true or not, but "nearly 1 in 10 children in the US will be sexually abused" is an incredibly high number. I have no doubt that some cases of sexually abused children must have also existed in the environment where I have grown up as a child, in Europe, but I am quite certain that such cases could not have been significantly more than 1 per thousand children. If the numbers wo…

Of my female friends, I know at least 5 who are victims. Victims make up the majority of my closer female circle.

It is way more commonplace than you would like to think.

Re: One Bad Apple

#502
Maybe you can answer this. What amount of the CP pictures are actual CP? Like are teens posting selfies of themselves in swimsuits or revealing clothes being submitted? People with their kids in the bathtub/pool? Are most of these pictures real give you nightmares CP?

Its seems insane to me that anyone would knowingly upload CP to a forensics site on purpose. Much less several times a day.

Re: One Bad Apple

#503
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> About this time, someone usually mocks "it's always about the kids, think about the kids." To those critics: They have not seen the scope of this problem or the long term impact. The problem is people use this perfectly legitimate problem to justify anything. They think it's okay to surveil the entire world because children are suffering. There are no limits they won't exceed, no lines they won't cross in the name…

Yeah, and none of these assholes (pardon the language) is willing to spend a penny to provide for millions of children suffering of poverty: free education, food, health, parental support. Nothing, zero, zilch. And these millions are suffering right now, this second, with life-long physical and psychological traumas that will perpetuate this poverty spiral forever.

Thank you for this argument, I will put it in my cannon of responses to people who are pro spyware.

Re: One Bad Apple

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " All of society’s privacy is more important than your single child, sorry. " " which might include audio of you making love to your wife. " You and your wife bumping uglies just isn't that special, your embarassment about it is way out of proportion to the amount necessary. The fact that you would rather people die in house fires than a small chance that a stranger hears you breathing heavily and talking dirty sho…

Just to be clear, you're saying that it's unreasonable to prefer everyone having private bedroom conversations over the elimination of spontaneous house fires? That it's worth having a random human being able to listen to all said conversations? To me at least it's incredibly reasonable to make that tradeoff. As a society we make tradeoffs all the time and people die as a result. Some of those tradeoffs are arguably…

Just to be clear, you’re saying “I would not undergo temporary embarrassment to avert mass agonising death” and you think that’s incredibly reasonable?

Re: One Bad Apple

#505
post #379

Wow, 20% of images being misclassified as CP would be terrifying. I never thought I'd say it but my next phone will definitely not be an iPhone or any device that is uploading my information to another server without my permission for any reason. Is there even any evidence that arresting people with the wrong bit pattern on the computer helps stop child rape/trafficking? If so, why aren't we also going after people w…

> If your neighbor to the left of you has videos of naked children, and your neighbor to the right has videos of people getting stabbed and tortured to death, only one should be arrested and put on a list? Why is it like this? Why are we not jailing people who enjoy watching gore?

My only initial guess is that the financial incentives are not the same. The "problem" of people getting murdered or non-consensually tortured specifically for entertainment and distribution is much lower than the problem of the economics of child sex abuse.

Re: One Bad Apple

#506

NCMEC has essentially shows that they have zero regard for privacy and called all privacy activists "screeching voices of the minority". At the same time, they're at the center point of a highly opaque, entrenched (often legally mandated) censorhip infrastructure that can and will get accounts shut down irrecoverably and possibly people's homes raided, on questionable data: In one of the previous discussions, I've se…

> I'm surprised, and honestly disappointed, that the author seems to still play nice, instead of releasing the whitepaper. I'm the author. I've worked with different parts of NCMEC for years. (I built the initial FotoForensics service in a few days. Before I wrote the first line of code, I was in phone calls with NCMEC about my reporting requirements.) Over time, this relationship grew. Some years, I was in face-to-f…

You ask how they can know that their false positive rate is 1 in a trillion, without testing trillions of images. Simple, they require more than on hit. If each hit has a false positive rate of 1 in 100, which is very testable, you can simply require six hits.

Re: One Bad Apple

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. I have absolutely no doubt this technology will be abused. I bet it will be used to silence dissent, opposition and wrongthink more often than to protect children.

Why doesn't anyone ever question their intent to protect children? There is no such intent. When they do protect children, these are the sorts of observations of what happens when the state has 100% control over children: https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article23820... Why does the state, when they treat children like this, get to proceed on "more" child protection to protect children ? Are we totally…

I am supportive of Apple’s new child protection policies. I spent two years helping to build some of the tools used for scanning and reporting content (EDIT: not at Apple). There are a few sentiments in this thread that I'd like to address.

> Yeah, and none of these assholes (pardon the language) is willing to spend a penny to provide for millions of children suffering of poverty: free education, food, health, parental support. Nothing, zero, zilch. And these millions are suffering right now, this second, with life-long physical and psychological traumas that will perpetuate this poverty spiral forever.

Many people in child safety and I, personally, strongly support policies that enhance the lives of children, including improved education, food, access to health services, and support for parents. To your point, though, it's also true that many political leaders who vocally address the issue of child sexual abuse on the internet also happen to be opposed to the policies I would support. Like most political alliances, it is an uncomfortable one.

> Anyone questions you, just destroy their reputation by calling them a pedophile.

I see this sentiment a lot. I have worked with people across law enforcement, survivors, survivor advocates, NGOs, social workers, private companies, etc. and I don't know anyone who responds this way to people raising privacy concerns. At worst, they might, rightly or wrongly, consider you alarmist or uninformed or privileged (in that you don't have images of your abuse being actively traded on the internet). But a pedophile? I just can't imagine anyone I've worked with in this space accusing you or even thinking of you as a potential pedophile just because you're opposed to content scanning or want E2EE enabled, etc. I suppose maybe someone far, far removed from actual front line workers would say something so ridiculous.

---

Separately, I want to suggest that there are paths forward here that could include risk controls to reduce the risk that this technology gets extended beyond its initial purpose. Maybe NCMEC could provide verifiable digests of the lists used on your device to verify that additional things haven't been added to it. Or there could be public, concrete, transparent criteria for how and when a lead is referred for law enforcement action. By designing this system by which the matching occurs on device against a list that can be made available to the user, Apple has made content scanning far more privacy-preserving and also created avenues by which it could be further regulated and transparent. I'm very excited about it and, honestly, I think even the staunchest privacy advocates should be cautiously optimistic because it is, in my opinion, a step in the direction of less visibility into user data.

I think that privacy advocates are arguing in good faith for protecting society from a surveillance state. I think that advocates of scanning are arguing in good faith for protecting children. I also think that both sides are using language (screeching on the NCMEC side, comparisons to hostile regimes on the other) that make it very hard to move forward. This isn't pedophile privacy advocates vs. surveillance state NCMEC. Neither of those groups even exist. It's concerned citizens wanting freedom for all people vs. concerned citizens wanting freedom for all people.

Re: One Bad Apple

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine that they do that by writing the bits to the hard drive without creating a fuzzy hash used to match your picture with those in some organization's list?

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by "infrastructure". Apple have always had the ability to do great evil to a lot of people, this update doesn't change that. They haven't gained any power they didn't already have. The government, for example, do not currently have the infrastructure to push updates to iPhone. If they passed laws, built servers etc to allow this then that would be a meaningful change that…

The government, for example, do not currently have the infrastructure to push updates to iPhone

That's the point, this is a slippery slope -- without this system, governments have no way to compel Apple to scan for objectionable photos, Apple could claim, rightly so, that due to encryption technology and privacy, they have no way to do it. But now they've removed both the technological and privacy hurdle, and it's just a matter of logistics.

Now governments know that all they need is a database of banned photos and they can go to Apple and say "In our country, it's illegal to share photos that put our government in a bad light. Here's a database of banned photos. If you don't comply, you can't sell your phones to our 1.4 billion citizens".

Re: One Bad Apple

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised, and honestly disappointed, that the author seems to still play nice, instead of releasing the whitepaper. I'm the author. I've worked with different parts of NCMEC for years. (I built the initial FotoForensics service in a few days. Before I wrote the first line of code, I was in phone calls with NCMEC about my reporting requirements.) Over time, this relationship grew. Some years, I was in face-to-f…

> Why haven't I made my whitepaper about PhotoDNA public? In my view, who would it help? It would help bad guys avoid detection and it will help malcontents manufacture false-positives. The paper won't help NCMEC, ICACs, or related law enforcement. It won't help victims. I have to respectfully disagree with that statement and the train of thought unfortunately. However, you should seek legal counsel before proceeding…

> Right now this area is not taken seriously enough as it should by the research community

Another reason is that basic material needed to conduct this research (child porn) is legally toxic to posses. Sure, there are ways around that for sufficiently motivated researchers. But if you are a CS researcher, you have a lot of research oppurtunities that do not involve any of that risk or overhead.

Re: One Bad Apple

#510

NCMEC has essentially shows that they have zero regard for privacy and called all privacy activists "screeching voices of the minority". At the same time, they're at the center point of a highly opaque, entrenched (often legally mandated) censorhip infrastructure that can and will get accounts shut down irrecoverably and possibly people's homes raided, on questionable data: In one of the previous discussions, I've se…

NCMEC is a private nonprofit. No government oversight. How are they allowed this much power over every photo on everyone's devices?
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