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‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

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Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#501

Post by cudgy »

awsthro00945 wrote: post #262
sanderjd wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you might get fired or laid off or burnt out and leave and only then discover that you have invested too much of yourself into this faceless entity that does not care a whit about you. This is one of those things where peoples' warnings to the young come from hard won experience, but where it doesn't sound right to people who have not themselves yet gained the experience. So we fail to impart the lessons and…

>This is one of those things where peoples' warnings to the young come from hard won experience, but where it doesn't sound right to people who have not themselves yet gained the experience. Speak for yourself. I am very experienced. I have worked at many companies, some of which I left abruptly, and others where my close friends were fired/laid off. But guess what? None of that matters. Just because a friendship sta…

Sounds exhausting (and distracting) trying to maintain anything beyond a superficial relationship with so many acquaintances gained from all the vectors in the life described above.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#502

Post by himinlomax »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #450
zippergz wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My purely anecdotal experience is kind of the opposite. My friends and co-workers who are eager to get back to the office are mostly the ones who have kids and want to get away from them during the day (which I am sympathetic to).

FWIW, I have a kid (and a second on the way), and I want to go to an office, my office - not back to the office. That is, I want a separate place to work from, to make work-life balance easier and better insulate myself from the kid-related chaos during work hours. But this can be solved with just renting a separate flat and using it as an office; something I actually considered, except small flats are the new fad fo…

I like WFH better, but I wouldn't mind having an office within the company building, even if it's a shared office as long as it's shared with people who work on the same thing as me.

What I can't stand, and what I believe many people don't realize how much they can't stand it instead of something else, is having to share a space with people I have nothing to do with. Open floor plans prevent me from talking with my close colleagues, they force me to overhear conversations I have no interest in, strangers walking by all the time, the lack of privacy generates anxiety and so on.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#504

Post by bregma »

simonh wrote: post #444
jq-r wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add two points to that. First, people here always point out about the boss looking over the peons in their open space office. That may be true for a lot of situations, but what is also depressing is that even if there is no boss/manager/whatever overlooking the employees, those will watch each other. Second, I can second the hallway conversations, those never happened at the places I've worked. If anything, it was…

At most of my employers useful conversations in hallways, at the kitchen, or just dropping by someone’s desk happened all the time. It’s an incredibly valuable opportunity. In the last year there are many people I used to talk to regularly I’ve either not talked to, or only talked to once or twice that otherwise I’d have checked in with on an almost weekly basis. I really miss those chats and I know I’m poorer for no…

I used to work for an all-remote company in which hallway conversations happened all the time over chat. In fact, people would often hold several hallway conversations at the same time using separate chat windows for each. The organization was set up for remote work and had chosen appropriate technology.

Where I work currently, we had a no-remote policy although our team is spread across two continents. The rationale for in-person-only-sort-of was that the organization could extract greater value from employees through the benefits of hallway conversations (except between team members in different offices). Hallway conversations just didn't happen; neither in-team or between teams. They happened in formal meetings where half the attendees just looked down at their phones.

When we went temporarily remote-only in March of 2020, we were not given any adequate technology (and in fact the required VPN technology prevented many from doing their jobs so it was often hacked). Eventually, many of the employees discovered there was a chat service and people who had never spoken before started communicating. Hallway conversations were had (initially mostly focused on hacking the VPN). Formal meetings were still run by the same people with similar output, but over-all productivity began to climb and we pushed out releases on time and on budget. It turns out at least our segment of the larger organization worked better remotely despite the lack of support and the official policies.

Recently it was announced that the entire organization would be returning to in-office only, 100% of the time. The errant chat service would be shut down. We would return to exactly the way it was two years ago because that is the only way that works, according to the CEO. We will return in the fall to no hallway conversations, head down at our desks focused on our assigned tasks, communication trickled down from the top as it should be.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#505

Post by bluGill »

bregma wrote: post #504
simonh wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At most of my employers useful conversations in hallways, at the kitchen, or just dropping by someone’s desk happened all the time. It’s an incredibly valuable opportunity. In the last year there are many people I used to talk to regularly I’ve either not talked to, or only talked to once or twice that otherwise I’d have checked in with on an almost weekly basis. I really miss those chats and I know I’m poorer for no…

I used to work for an all-remote company in which hallway conversations happened all the time over chat. In fact, people would often hold several hallway conversations at the same time using separate chat windows for each. The organization was set up for remote work and had chosen appropriate technology. Where I work currently, we had a no-remote policy although our team is spread across two continents. The rationale…

I think we just learned more about you than about our company. My personal choice would be to avoid those conversations in the hall and just use chat. However I've learned over the years not everyone is like me and most people do talk to people in the halls, the water coolers...

One useful bit of advice I got years ago was when in person instead of reaching for chat when you need someone walk over to their desk and talk to them. For the vast majority of people talking to them face to face is more meaningful than the chat even if to you it seems that chat is more efficient.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#506

Post by sumtechguy »

phreeza wrote: post #338
bluGill wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends a lot. WFH when most companies won't allow it is a perk that will keep people around. However once WFH is a common thing it is much easier to switch. If you WFH you can work anywhere in the country (in theory world, but there are tricky issues there that I don't know much about) which means you can switch from a job in the Bay to NYC with no problem, then jump to the one job in some tiny village in Montana -…

I guess I was unclear in my comment. I meant that FAANG can spend money on WFH related perks (premium equipment, food delivery, whatever) that second tier companies are maybe not willing to pay, thus retaining the same advantage they had in the office work era that was mentioned by the grandparent in their post.

Both of you have fair points.

Mostly the lock in is money. They just pay higher rates, with stock incentives to keep you around longer. After awhile you realize the 'free lunch' and other things are nice but not really needed, especially if you are working from home. Where you realize those perks can be bought cheap enough.

Also at some point you may get to the point where 'I am pretty good on money and just want more challenging work'. That only goes so far too.

But yes companies could up their WFH perks. However, if I am reading the tea leaves right it looks like WFH may become be a perk that is part of a package. Not the perk. Something along the lines of 'every other friday' or 'be in office at least 2 days a week' something like that. I could see that only lasting so long too unless the upper management pushes it. Get a few over zealous ladder climbers and suddenly 'we need to skip WFH this friday we need to ship this ASAP' few months of that and it just doesnt happen anymore.

But remember companies could also go the other way, and go bring your own device style of work. Meaning you pick up all the costs. I could also see 'oh you live in city XYZ well the pay rate there is 50% less than all the other sites'.

Having worked at a few places in my career. Each one has for a lack of a better word 'style'. But at home that 'style' would not be as noticeable. Part of working at a place is that. You walk into a google building you know it is that. You walk into a bank and you know it is that. Just something about how everything is setup and run has a particular feel. I have bounced out of interviews just by walking the office (you could just see the dread and deathmarches they were on). I could see 'oh you say you buy top of the line computers but in reality all of your kit is 10 years old'. But at home, I am not going to get that. One company would be fairly similar in feel to another. Just me speaking personally if companies all look the same basically what ties me to one or another other than maybe some 'perks'?

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#507

Post by rytor718 »

test_epsilon wrote: post #486
ItsMonkk wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that others are not working in the office, I hope that communities realize that we are drastically under-creating shared spaces and push for significantly more of them. As these offices are sitting empty and are no longer required, instead of letting them sit empty, let them be free to all. Community involvement is the only way to get this done.

> Now that others are not working in the office, I hope that communities realize that we are drastically under-creating shared spaces and push for significantly more of them. The lack of of "community" is not due to lack of concrete boxes, in my opinion. How busy is your local library? From the odd occasion I've been, mine is not very. And seemed to be almost entirely frequented by people who had come to use the free…

Or it could be people dont prefer to socialize at libraries (I have always been taught its a quiet place, personally)?

I agree with the person you respond to: we kinda haven't figured out the social spaces thing, nor had to figure it out, for a very, very long time. All of our current shared social spaces are conventions from a time past that we continue because they're still relevant (bars/pubs, clubs, private clubs, restaurants, etc). Not complaining about any of these -- they're fantastic. Just noting the absence of modern social spaces.

Its the reason I really love Summer where I live. Always a festival or event to go got and get lost in a crowd, meet new people and celebrate whatever's on display that day. Aside from those, there's very little of what I'd call modern "social spaces" around me. Seems like a void needs to be filled there in the community.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#508

Post by icedchai »

unmole wrote: post #498
icedchai wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is true. It would be different if it were planned for. I hope to get back to coffee shops soon. I am somewhat hesitant at the moment given there's still a decent percentage of unvaccinated folks in the area.

> decent percentage of unvaccinated folks in the area. Unvaccinated folks pose a potential risk to themselves and other unvaccinated people. So, if you're already vaccinated, why are you still hesitant to go out? Is it because you live with kids or with someone immunocompromised who can't get vaccinated?

Even though I'm vaccinated, there is still a small possibility I can get it, not know I'm infected, and pass it to the un-vaccinated. Some would say this is their problem, not mine... but, it just makes me uncomfortable.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#509

Post by iandanforth »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #188
iandanforth wrote: post #132

Mozilla serves as an interesting example here. They are very much a Silicon Valley company and have a ton of that same energy. Even before the pandemic they had a globally distributed workforce and so had to develop processes that brought people together. Twice a year, for example, they had a company all-hands event to bring everyone to the same place. Usually somewhere fun. Now they aren't a large company by any mea…

Anecdotally I personally know several people who have left Mozilla in the last year, and not because they were laid off but because they were very frustrated with how things had been going internally (not necessarily with remote work.) They just went through a huge round of layoffs, but I see job postings from them constantly. Somethings not right over there. I interviewed with them a couple years ago and it didn't w…

FWIW if the vast majority of your revenue comes from a single source that actively competes with you it can be a hard business model to sustain. When revenue starts declining then you're living with a situation where things are getting worse day by day. I think Moz is/has been dealing with it fairly well. It's forced them to confront the need to diversify their revenue streams. Now when that happens people will look at the choices being made around how to fix the situation and disagree vehemently. People with extensive tenure are let go due to cost and a belief that the company needs people with different skills, that erodes social networks, and other people who were not let go decide to leave.

In other large/largish companies that have gone through boom and bust cycles I've seen this same pattern play out. During growth periods people laud leadership choices and during contraction and turn around people say "there's something fundamentally wrong here."

So not saying you're wrong, just that this reality is not unexpected or unusual.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#510

Post by 0xffff2 »

jedberg wrote: post #496
0xffff2 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're in a major metro like the bay area, 1.5 hours still doesn't get you far enough to afford anything like enough land for a hobby farm on anything short of a FANNG salary.

Sure it does. 1.5 hours gets you to Stockton or Gilroy or Modesto of Fairfield and lots of other more open places where you can get a few acres at a decent price.

Based on a quick look at Zillow, 5 acres (undeveloped, no house) goes for nearly a million dollars. We have fundamentally different ideas of what constitutes a "decent price" if that qualifies for you. I'm 6 hours drive from the my office in Mountain View now, and I'm looking at a similarly undeveloped plot that's 250 acres and worth somewhere between $200k and $300k.
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