Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What it's like to be cancelled

noahbradley.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

501–510 of 613 posts

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#501

Post by koheripbal »

shadeslayer_ wrote: post #401
Animats wrote: post #143

What he's supposed to have done: “I was terrible to women. I preyed on them. I ceaselessly hit on them. I pressured them into sex. I got too drunk and did all manner of dumb things.” None of which is illegal. It's not even a matter for civil litigation. He was not accused of doing this as a boss in an organization. Or in a workplace context. There were apparently no criminal charges. No EEOC complaints filed.[1] No a…

If pressuring women into sex is not illegal, I really want to know which country you are living in.

You might be playing on the word "pressure". I don't think semantic debates are worthwhile.

"pressuring" isn't a word used in legal texts anyway.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#502

Post by koheripbal »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #138
legitster wrote: post #65

Honestly, the biggest mistake people make is issuing public apologies. So far, we have very few examples of them actually working. On the contrary, any amount of admission seems to show weakness. The "controversy" around Lin-Manuel Miranda seems to have come nearly entirely from his apology to a very small group of disappointed fans. There are even more examples of very publicly terrible people who have skirted worse…

In the classical music world, there is a recent example of a composer getting canceled for a complete misinterpretation of an Instagram post. His publisher demanded he apologize, in fact, it provided a pre-written apology for him to just sign. He refused to do so, and his publisher dropped him entirely, which basically ended his career, at least for the time being. So, some people are compelled by employment reasons…

His employer tried to coerce an apology from him, and then fired him when he refused?

That sounds like a lawsuit in the making, even if he wasn't a formal employee.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#503

Post by pdonis »

aeturnum wrote: post #493
pdonis wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if he had agency in the attacks on him I think he did in the sense that he could have chosen to respond in different ways. He could have said, for example, something like: "I admit I behaved badly in the past. I have changed who I am so I don't do those things any more, and I have apologized in private to the people I hurt. That's all I'm going to say about it." And then just ignored whatever happened on social med…

I think you point to the basic question here: is it fair to only judge him for the things he has apologized for and taken ownership of, or would it be moral to form and act on our own opinions? If you feel it's only appropriate to judge people on the behavior they admit to, then I think your read is correct. That also, to me, feels like it becomes tautological - it places the locus of power on the accused and the onu…

> I think you point to the basic question here: is it fair to only judge him for the things he has apologized for and taken ownership of, or would it be moral to form and act on our own opinions?

I'm fine with forming and acting on your own opinions, if they are based on reliable information.

What I'm not fine with is cancelling someone without even bothering to find out reliable information, which is what appears to have happened in this case.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#504

Post by koheripbal »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #317
legitster wrote: post #65

Honestly, the biggest mistake people make is issuing public apologies. So far, we have very few examples of them actually working. On the contrary, any amount of admission seems to show weakness. The "controversy" around Lin-Manuel Miranda seems to have come nearly entirely from his apology to a very small group of disappointed fans. There are even more examples of very publicly terrible people who have skirted worse…

> So far, we have very few examples of them actually working. That's not the purpose of an apology. An apology is something you do to help the victims move forward, not something you do to minimize consequences.

No, that's why private apologies are for.

Public apologies are just emotional porn for the Twitter masses. They serve no purpose, and are a desperate attempt to satiate the insatiable.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#505

Post by koheripbal »

paulpauper wrote: post #129
legitster wrote: post #65

Honestly, the biggest mistake people make is issuing public apologies. So far, we have very few examples of them actually working. On the contrary, any amount of admission seems to show weakness. The "controversy" around Lin-Manuel Miranda seems to have come nearly entirely from his apology to a very small group of disappointed fans. There are even more examples of very publicly terrible people who have skirted worse…

Doing or saying nothing only helps if you're innocent until proven guilty. An apology just helps to clarify the situation once the issue cannot be ignored. It will not make the mobs change their minds.

Apologizing on social media does not diffuse anything. It attracts attention and those who missed the initial controversy typically try to use the apology to exact more "consequences".

Public apologies should never be done. If you want to apologize, do it in private to the alleged victim - do not do it in public.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#506

Post by pdonis »

aeturnum wrote: post #493
pdonis wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if he had agency in the attacks on him I think he did in the sense that he could have chosen to respond in different ways. He could have said, for example, something like: "I admit I behaved badly in the past. I have changed who I am so I don't do those things any more, and I have apologized in private to the people I hurt. That's all I'm going to say about it." And then just ignored whatever happened on social med…

I think you point to the basic question here: is it fair to only judge him for the things he has apologized for and taken ownership of, or would it be moral to form and act on our own opinions? If you feel it's only appropriate to judge people on the behavior they admit to, then I think your read is correct. That also, to me, feels like it becomes tautological - it places the locus of power on the accused and the onu…

> False accusations exist (though research suggests they are extremely rare).

What research are you referring to?

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#507

Post by pdonis »

aeturnum wrote: post #493
pdonis wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if he had agency in the attacks on him I think he did in the sense that he could have chosen to respond in different ways. He could have said, for example, something like: "I admit I behaved badly in the past. I have changed who I am so I don't do those things any more, and I have apologized in private to the people I hurt. That's all I'm going to say about it." And then just ignored whatever happened on social med…

I think you point to the basic question here: is it fair to only judge him for the things he has apologized for and taken ownership of, or would it be moral to form and act on our own opinions? If you feel it's only appropriate to judge people on the behavior they admit to, then I think your read is correct. That also, to me, feels like it becomes tautological - it places the locus of power on the accused and the onu…

> >[the companies fired him] based on fear of social media.

I have no idea if this is true and neither do you.

Fair enough. We don't have access to internal company deliberations.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#508

Post by caeril »

xwdv wrote: post #12

If you find yourself the target of a cancellation attempt, never give in. Never apologize. If you do, the problem isn’t going to go away, it will get worse. No apology is ever enough. No punishment is ever enough. There is no way to redeem yourself in the eyes of the public. Apologizing is making yourself humbled and vulnerable to a mob that does not deserve it. You will roll over to expose your belly in submission a…

Not really sure why this is downvoted, as it is absolutely correct.

Human beings are still barely-evolved monkeys, with a keen sense for, and penchant to exploit, perceived weakness.

Apologies to third parties never make things better. Rather, they signal weakness to the mob, which emboldens them to pile on harder.

Absolutely, you should apologize to the specific people you've hurt, as I gather the original poster did. NEVER apologize to random unaffiliated people looking for outrage fuel. It always ends badly.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#509

Post by pdonis »

aeturnum wrote: post #486
pdonis wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the end of the day no one has an obligation to like you. It is not up to the perpetrator to decide what the appropriate restorative process is. We do not need a legal system to give us permission to dislike someone. I agree with this, but here we're not talking about just disliking someone. We're talking about cancellation--someone's livelihood is taken away (he was fired, from multiple jobs). Just disliking som…

I believe he does have legal recourse against false accusations. Slander and libel law is pretty old and well-established. Also, outside of protected classes, we have a legal system that assumes people do not have a right to be hired. I think each employer would need to make their own decision. There is nothing in his account that would make me uncomfortable working with him. But, I think your critique really points…

> I believe he does have legal recourse against false accusations.

He does if he can prove damages. In practice that is extremely hard to do, even if we leave out all the additional difficulties associated with accusations made by anonymous people on the Internet.

Also, the only legal remedy is compensatory damages and punitive damages from a successful lawsuit. But who is he going to sue? Twitter? They'll just say they aren't responsible for false accusations made using their platform, and AFAIK that position has already been upheld in court. And beyond that, we come up against those difficulties I just referred to: how do you find people in the real world corresponding to various Twitter identities and get them into court? And what do you do if they turn out to be judgment proof?

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#510

Post by temp8964 »

username90 wrote: post #482
temp8964 wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This is a totally nonsensical response. Everybody read history knows current Switzerland is a very unique outlier.

Why couldn't other countries just implement the same system? Is there something magical about Swiss people that makes them handle direct democracy responsibly that other populations doesn't have? If you talk about their finances, sure that wont replicate, but there is nothing preventing their model of democracy from working.

> Is there something magical about Swiss people that makes them handle direct democracy responsibly that other populations doesn't have?

This doesn't have to be anything magical. Do you believe there is no cultural difference? Or do you believe culture doesn't matter to a democracy system?

Post reply on HN