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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#501

Post by nickpp »

dmitriid wrote: post #499
nickpp wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 6 years, Google itself (which has all the lawyers and engineers it needs) has resorted to the same f-ing ugly cookie popup everyone else is using. The problem is the law. It's a crappy law.

> Google itself (which has all the lawyers and engineers it needs) has resorted to the same f-ing ugly cookie popup Because Google is in the business of dark patterns and wholesale data collection. They couldn't care less about user privacy. Besides, their entire system is built on the premise of wholesale data collection. Their own engineers admit that they don't know how and where the data is collected and de-googl…

Yeah, sure, everybody else is part of the problem. Everybody except those who created the problem in the first place.

Are they gonna sue every single website who had to put up a cookie popup just because they run analytics?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#502

Post by dmitriid »

nickpp wrote: post #501
dmitriid wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google itself (which has all the lawyers and engineers it needs) has resorted to the same f-ing ugly cookie popup Because Google is in the business of dark patterns and wholesale data collection. They couldn't care less about user privacy. Besides, their entire system is built on the premise of wholesale data collection. Their own engineers admit that they don't know how and where the data is collected and de-googl…

Yeah, sure, everybody else is part of the problem. Everybody except those who created the problem in the first place. Are they gonna sue every single website who had to put up a cookie popup just because they run analytics?

> Everybody except those who created the problem in the first place.

For over a decade there have been laws in each country protecting people's private data. Companies kept on ignoring those laws. The countries came together and created a single law for the entirety of the EU.

The essence of the law:

- if you need some data for the functionality of your service, you can collect it

- if you don't need some data for the functionality of your service, you can't collect it unless you explicitly ask the person. And "opt out" has to be the default option, and cannot stop the person from using the service

How is that a problem?

Those popups? Yes, they are annoying, but they also show how every single website sells the data they don't need to hundreds of companies without your consent. And they keep trying to trick you into providing that data. Now this is a problem.

However, you think that it's all fine, everyone should just hoover up all the data they can possibly get their hands on.

> Are they gonna sue every single website who had to put up a cookie popup just because they run analytics?

Yes, theoretically they have the authority to do that. However, no, they are not going to do that. And no, that doesn't mean that the law is bad.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#503

Post by YeezyMode »

systemvoltage wrote: post #436
throwaway894345 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" I get the distinct impression that people who liken the US to a third world country are from one particular spot on the political spectrum. This seems like political rhetoric, not a summary of some level-headed analysis. Inequality, crime, etc in the US are certainly problems, but that seems like a low bar for the "third world c…

One can just look at objective data: https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/ People that say US is a third world country are mostly illinformed, my guess is due to political affiliation as you said, but also the city dynamics, arm chair media consumption (NYT exclusively reports vocal minority issues day in day out) and uninformed about what actual third-world countries are like.

Looking at the data, the sample size is quite pathetic. https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/bli/

The amount of responses is skewed largely to 2-3 countries and the self-report guide is unreliable.

On top of that, by their own admission here: https://read.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/how-s-life_97892641...

their empirical data does not account for factors like wealth distribution, and a lot of the subjective indicators do not correlate strongly with the "objective" measures, with the exception of housing satisfaction.

Data and science doesn't make something objective. For something that claims to measure the quality of life of entire countries and compare them, I'd expect at least 70% of the world to be sampled in a thorough way.

Also, I don't think I've ever met anybody that genuinely believed the US was a third world country. They usually bring up its flaws in response to claims of "USA #1" or something along those lines which are slogans they grew up around their whole life. Now that they are looking into things, traveling, and experiencing more of life, they realize that that blanket statement holds no truth. The arm chair media consumption is definitely an issue but in the same way, I remember only reading good things about the US for almost the entirety of the 90s (consuming news from the BBC, Reuters, and local Japanese/Indian news orgs).

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#504

Post by raverbashing »

lesto wrote: post #281
raverbashing wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to hire german speaking people and that means opening a Sales Office in Germany No you don't need that. You can have your German speaking people move to Italy and work from there. That's the whole point of the EU. The same for VAT, you can register in one country and have that sent to multiple countries according to your sales. No presence needed

As EUropean living in a different country for work, is not that easy at all. Try to do your taxes in Swedish or German or French.. Or try to have a social life with people that while could speak English will probably switch to their own language when in more than 2-3 person. Yes of course you can learn the language, but dont think you can be proficient in a couple of year, especially if working 40h/week, and still yo…

Been there, done that, it takes some work but it's not such a hurdle.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#505

Post by nickpp »

dmitriid wrote: post #502
nickpp wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sure, everybody else is part of the problem. Everybody except those who created the problem in the first place. Are they gonna sue every single website who had to put up a cookie popup just because they run analytics?

> Everybody except those who created the problem in the first place. For over a decade there have been laws in each country protecting people's private data. Companies kept on ignoring those laws. The countries came together and created a single law for the entirety of the EU. The essence of the law: - if you need some data for the functionality of your service, you can collect it - if you don't need some data for th…

Please open an incognito browser window and go to the "Official website of the European Union": https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en

Look at the bottom of the page. It's a cookie banner. It was their law. They had 6 years to implement it on their own website. This is the result. The law is broken.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#506

Post by lamnk »

unknownOrigin wrote: post #256
fvdessen wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes far beyond that. If you are in Italy and want to expand to Germany you need to hire german speaking people and that means opening a Sales Office in Germany, and dealing with different labour regulations etc.

And just to add to this, from a certain level (revenue) that's not that high (and depends on idividual states) you need a presence (VAT registration) and a business bank account in the country you're selling your services/goods in, even if you're not actually located there. E.g. a medium sized online shop based in the Czech Republic that is shipping to Hungary. Now imagine this if you're shipping to many EU states...…

this is wrong, at least according to my experience living in Germany 10 years ago

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#507

Post by dmitriid »

nickpp wrote: post #495
Beldin wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put that slightly differently: warnings/popups are never needed unless you're taking data from your visitor which has nothing to do with the function(s) your offering the visitor. The GDPR spells out when you're allowed to collect data; asking for consent is basically its emergency escape hatch. You only need to do that if there is absolutely no (functional) reason to get that data, but you want it anyway.

GDPR doesn't spell out anything. It's the most vague f-ing BS I have ever seen. There are no definitions, no guidelines. 6 years later there is no consensus on simple questions like website analytics which is probably the most common usage scenario for the kind of data GDPR covers. This law is beyond bad.

> There are no definitions, no guidelines.

There are both definitions and guidelines. You just didn't even care to read it.

For example, cookies: https://gdpr.eu/cookies/

Popups: https://gdpr.eu/recital-32-conditions-for-consent/

=== start quote ===

Consent should be given by a clear affirmative act establishing a freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous indication of the data subject’s agreement to the processing of personal data

...

Silence, pre-ticked boxes or inactivity should not therefore constitute consent.

=== end quote ===

> there is no consensus on simple questions like website analytics which is probably the most common usage scenario for the kind of data GDPR covers.

The consensus is there. And it's spelled clearly in the law.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#508

Post by dmitriid »

nickpp wrote: post #497
dmitriid wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is very straightforward and can be quite easily implemented by anyone. Notable exceptions are finance institutions where GDPR is superseded by relevant financial laws of each country. There are explainers, compliance checklists, whatever you want to implement it. It was three years before it went in effect, and it's been 3 years since it went into effect. If you don't understand it by now, you definitely don'…

The only straightforward thing about this law is how ignorant were its creators. The cost of implementing it was in the billions. The human time cost paid for all those damn cookie popups we keep having to click on is probably already in the thousands of life-times wasted, and it keeps on growing.

> The cost of implementing it was in the billions.

Cry me a river. If you was careless with users' data, who cares?

> The human time cost paid for all those damn cookie popups we keep having to click on is probably already in the thousands of life-times wasted, and it keeps on growing.

Ah yes, and the problem is the law that protects users' data, and not the companies who couldn't care less about privacy.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#509

Post by mmarq »

dukeyukey wrote: post #430
mnouquet wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, everybody wants to be a manager because mere developers is not high enough status. In the US, a 45yo DB engineer is akin to highly skilled wizard.

Tbh this isn't my experience in the UK. Manager is just one path people take; others aim for tech lead, or principal engineer. I really don't see how 'status' comes into this.

Principal engineers practically didn’t exist in the UK until a few years ago. Even now, a principal engineer would unlikely get any further promotions and pay rises, while an engineering manager could potentially become the CTO.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#510

Post by mmarq »

mnouquet wrote: post #464
tored wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but depending on your yearly income there is another tax separate from the normal income tax (inkomskatt), if you earn more than 523 300 SEK you also need to pay "statlig inkomstskatt" at 20% for everything above that rate. And previous year 2020 was the first tax year without värnskatt, an extra 5%, ie 25% total, for everything above 703 000 SEK. It was abolished 2019.

Oh my god, a $100k salary would be taxes at 42%, plus a 25% VAT on general spending, that's just insane...

In the UK you pay 60% on anything between 100K and 125K, then it goes back to 40%. Above 150K it goes to 45%. This is only the income tax. National insurance would be 2% at those income levels.
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