Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English • Hacker News Board

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#501

Post by ncpa-cpl » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

n4bz0r wrote: post #257

e17 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have witnessed this phenomenon living in London as a native of the city. A new-to-London Russian colleague of mine used ornate phraseology and what I would consider as 'posh' words quite regularly. A major phrase for her was "It seems to me" as a precursor to saying virtually any opinion. I never knew the reason for it though, so TIL.

In case you are curious what the exact reason might be: "It seems to me" is most likely coming from the much less fancy sounding, and more casual "мне кажется" (mnye kazhetsya). "Mnye" would be "to me", and "kazhetsya" could be represented as "it seems". I say "could be" because there is no direct translation for "kazhetsya" as far as I'm aware. The closest (and most direct) translation of "kazhetsya" that I can thin…

Like "Me parece" in Spanish.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#502

Post by screye » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #303

chris_j wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Wikipedia is to be believed [0], India ranks third in the list of countries ranked by number of English speakers and it's only fair to regard Indian English as a form of the language that is at least as valid as those from other countries. Having said that, one of the things that you have to learn when you start speaking with English speakers from around the world is to recognise which of the words in your vocabul…

The difference is that Indian English exists almost entirely as a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) language, so it'll never sound as natural. It's not the language of the street or the discourse.

That's untrue for the current generation.

I and a lot of my Indian peers consider English to be our 1st language.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#503

Post by StavrosK » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #471

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. To be honest, I don't know how I'd phrase "on the edge of the barbecue". "Στην απέξω μεριά"? We also use "περιφέρεια" for the circumference of a circle so I could say "στην περιφέρεια της ψησταριάς" to make a nerdy joke... but that supports your point.

> We also use "περιφέρεια" for the circumference of a circle Blasphemy! (In English, at least, circles have a "circumference" while every other shape has a "perimeter". Ovals seem to use either word.) I never actually thought about combining " peri meter" with "circum fer ence" to get "periphery".

We don't really use "periphery" for the circumference in Greek, we use "perimeter". Periphery refers to something outside the object you're describing, whereas perimeter is right at the edge of the object, but usually belonging to it.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#504

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #230

chris_j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

"A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education." There's the opposite problem, too, where people with poor educations will try to use fancy words to impress people (but often wind up just sounding pretentious). One of my pet peeves is hearing people using the word "utilize". Just say "use"! It sounds far less pretentious and means the exact same thing. I…

[deleted]

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#505

Post by andersonvom » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

jakub_g wrote: post #136

awillen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What languages do you speak? I speak Spanish and have been learning Polish for a few years because my wife's family immigrated from there, and many are still in Poland, with some only speaking Polish... can't have the in-laws talking trash without me knowing :) Spanish is generally straightforward and consistent, though the huge number of dialects can be a challenge for practical communication. Polish is a goddamn ni…

There is a famous picture for that: https://9gag.com/gag/arOAPm6 Basically in Polish (and other Slavic languages) you take several concepts that are separate fixed words / grammar orders in English, and you meld them together with prefixes and postfixes to form a super-word that contains all information: (I/you/he/she/it/we/you/they) x (future/now/past) x (surely/maybe) x (finished/unfished) x (statement/question) x…

Languages are not inherently easy or hard. It all depends on where you're coming from: if you happen to already speak languages that are similar, then it can be said English will be easy to learn, otherwise, it's a language like any other. Just ask any Japanese or Chinese speaker how easy/hard it was to learn English.

The reason English got so popular is purely because of the power and wealth English speaking nations have amassed in the recent history.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#506

Post by reubenmorais » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #304

chris_j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

Portuguese sometimes has a strangely literary cadence and the sentence structure tends to formality. It's quite an unusual language - a mix of Romance, Arabic, and a hint of English, which sounds like Russian when spoken. There are also plenty of false friends which confuse native speakers of both languages. That still doesn't explain why someone would say periferia when they meant lado or maybe bordo.

Usually the words that are close to Latin or Greek in Portuguese will have English equivalents (<- here's one!) that are also close to the Latin/Greek. So in a pinch for a word and trying to translate in your head, it's easier to remember the words with a smaller transformation from Portuguese to English than something very different. Some sort of compression coding of a translation dictionary inside of the brain :D

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#507

Post by ncpa-cpl » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:57 PM UTC

caymanjim wrote: post #226

dukeofdoom wrote: post #133

Isn't this selection bias? It's like walking in on a flight to US, and seeing how poorly sloppy everyone is dressed. So you might assume that the US is some sort of third world country. But you would be wrong, because the US is rich enough that even the lower class can travel. So if you are talking with some native speaker, you just might be speaking with an idiot, because even idiots speak English as their first lan…

I think you're confused about how Americans dress. Even people with money dress casually, and we don't dress up to get on airplanes. In fact, most of us dress extra-casual on planes. I normally won't wear sweatpants in public, but I will on a plane, because it's far too uncomfortable to wear pants and a belt while crammed into a tiny seat. People who normally dress well will wear pajamas on planes.

I have the impression that I get asked less questions by immigration / customs when I dress better.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#508

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:58 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #288

>> Sergio Serrano has participated in many international scientific conferences across the globe. "In a typical situation, a group of foreign researchers are discussing a complex technical issue with very precise and elaborate formal English," Serrano says, "until an American joins the group." I'm not American but I don't like this. If an American author had written that everything is fine until "a foreigner joins th…

If your Chilean is having difficulties learning the local language to such a degree that people don’t tolerate his practicing attempts, then he might need to just sign up for a course where a teacher, paid to be patient, will work with him.

I love language-learning, and I can usually bootstrap myself to a level where the locals don’t reply in English when I want to practice. However, with Dutch I found it difficult to bootstrap and I experienced what your Chilean did. When I complained about how locals weren’t letting me practice, I was told (the famous Dutch directness!) that I needed to simply hire a teacher to get to a higher level, instead of being annoying to local people. People’s time is precious, and a foreigner speaking the local language haltingly is arguably disrespectful of their time.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#509

Post by anotherevan » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”

— James Nicoll

I think this aspect of English is what makes it so complicated. For instance, words are spelt with an "f" or a "ph" depending on what language we originally stole it from.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#510

Post by andyana » Thu, May 20, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #230

chris_j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

"A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education." There's the opposite problem, too, where people with poor educations will try to use fancy words to impress people (but often wind up just sounding pretentious). One of my pet peeves is hearing people using the word "utilize". Just say "use"! It sounds far less pretentious and means the exact same thing. I…

Would you say you are trying to foster communication by using the lowest common denominator with regards to your choice in words?