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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#501

This keeps being posted and keeps disappearing, so I'm going to not link to it, but when you search around, a post on telegram by Pavel Durov explains that apple has in fact made 2 demands: Take down the private information __and__ in addition to that, do so silently: Do not replace it with a notice explaining which part of apple's guidelines were breached, because that would be 'irrelevant' info. Apparently, whilst…

Telegram is small enough for Apple to bully. Imagine if Apple tried to force Twitter to censor every "cancel crusade" or be removed from the App Store.

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#502
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or they could make Apple remove the telegram app. Which is effective primarily because there’s no (practical) way to sideload on iOS! This is why I’ve always seen the locked-down nature of the iPhone as a threat to free expression first and foremost. Apple is responsible for setting the system up this way.

I agree in principle. In practice, this can be achieved today for a handful of apps with AltStore.io.

AltStore is great, but it requires you to run a server on a computer on the same wifi network as your phone, at least once week. I don't consider this a particularly practical way to side-load, even if it is better than the alternatives. Protestors in Belarus shouldn't need to also be IT administrators.

Sideloading does have risks, and so it doesn't need to be too easy. As a point of comparison, I really like how disabling SIP works on the Mac—the user needs to reboot the computer into recovery mode and run a short Terminal command. This process feels dangerous, but it's really quite easy, and it only needs to be done once per machine. I could guide even a very technology-illiterate person through the process, if I absolutely needed to.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#503
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

When I was a kid the phone book came every year. It had the telephone numbers and addresses of just about everyone.

Are you referring to the opt in database of details you were expected to update yourself?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully buy this idea, because I've never seen an app become successfully widespread through side loading. The technical friction is just too high for non technical users. I agree that we need a solution to monopolistic app stores though.

> I don't fully buy this idea Apple is currently literally being a threat to free expression in a situation where it really matters. You don't need to buy the idea, but they're doing it.

I don't fully buy the idea _that sideloading solves this potential abuse_, not that the abuse exists, I thought that was clear.

I'd hate it if the big players got to take decisions against human rights under the excuse that an alternative technically exists.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). At the same time they do not permit side-loading, thereby handing complete control over what users are allowed to install on their devices to authoritarian regimes. T…

> Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). Woah. I don’t know how I missed this news for so long.

This is unfortunately the only way to operate an online service in China. It’s standard practice (and a legal requirement) to hand off the ownership and control of Chinese servers to a separate Chinese company. Apple has been pretty transparent about this.

One could argue that Apple should have just exited the Chinese market instead of letting the local government spy on their citizens. Google has taken that position.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#507
post #294
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to match this post, where apple is asking to remove telegram groups used to de-anonymize law enforcement members. Apple could do something really simple if they wanted to not interfeer with how people organize their fight: allow to install apps outside of the app store. This would force law enforcement to deal with Telegram directly rather than being able to take advantage of apple's own authoritarian way…

It doesn't change the legal threats of the Belarus government, though. It can still compel Apple to ban self-installs.

How are they going to compel Apple, send a Soviet era fishing boat to the shores of California and scream loudly or turn their own internet off?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's Durov's response: ``` Apple released a statement saying they didn't want us to take down the 3 channels run by the Belarusian protestors, but just specific posts "disclosing personal information." This sly wording ignores the fact that channels like @karatelibelarusi and @belarusassholes consist entirely of personal information of violent oppressors and those who helped rig the elections – because that is why…

I take no issue with wanting to remove content that doxxes people, even if those people are doing bad things. I do, however, take issue with Apple pushing this idea that they can decide what information you can and cannot give users. Barring people from saying "Hey, we didn't delete this because we wanted to, Apple asked us to" is a bit suspect as it leads to people associating the act with the app by default. It tak…

Even more, Apple has assigned itself powers that in most (sane) countries are a strict monopoly of governments (and preferably only after going through a legal system/process and strictly regulated).

Especially Apple's attempt/request/demand to remove things silently goes way beyond what any company (or citizen) should ever be allowed to do to speech of others. Whether this doxxing is justified or not, that's up to courts and certainly not Apple. Censorship (while debatable if it ever should be allowed in some cases or never) should always be a monopoly of a state (which should be legally accountable) and never commercial entities.

I'm honestly a bit surprised, that so far I hear few governments protest, about how a commercial company basically usurped powers that are supposed to be limited to governments only. Such powers belong only there not just by habit or by convention, but also because this an important aspect of the legal order in any state of law. That is, at least for any country that has signed and ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

As appalling as Apple's behavior might be (and I certainly hope they will pay dearly for it), it's not particularly surprising (anymore). But the silence of governments on this behavior, that should worry more people a lot more.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#509
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only are you forced to follow whatever Apple tells you to do, you’re not allowed to communicate as such because it might make Apple look bad to users who don’t know any better. It’s really a quite inconvenient situation.

That's been a technique that apple have been using quite a bit. Forbid apps to be transparent with their customers around apple rules. This way app users are pissed at the app makers not apple.

The sheer chutzpah of claiming "Apple eats 30% of all charitable donations made on the app" is an irrelevant piece of information to the end-user.

This is the kind of behavior that only comes from a company that knows they can get away with murder, and when that happens, it's time to tighten the screw a bit before things get waaay out of hand.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is completely out of place meddling in Belarus' politics. Not only that, the stance they are taking is with a dictator who stole the election ...

Apple absolutely shouldn't meddle in Belarus's politics. But if Belarusian users are using their platform to incite violence, as Apple says they are, don't they have a moral responsibility to try and do something about it?

> .. don't they have a moral responsibility to try and do something about it?

Is Apple a law enforcing agency with jurisdiction in that region? If the answer to that is no, then the answer to your (rhetorical) question is equally no.

Even more, Apple might very well be the one legally at fault here, for assuming authoritative powers for which it has absolutely no legal mandate or justification.

So, if anything, it is rather Apple that is likely the one braking the law here, despite all the rhetoric about Apple having some kind of moral duty (absolute hogwash).

It isn't so much about meddling, but more about Apple assuming powers it should never have in the first place (legally speaking).

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