Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#501

Post by tux1968 » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #420

twblalock wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, remote education has been a complete disaster. I know a few teachers. Apparently their students found out that the state was unwilling to hold anyone back a year during the pandemic, they shared this information with each other, and now a substantial amount of them are not doing any work. In some classes, more than half the students are permanently absent! Either their parents don't know, or don't car…

That’s a cultural problem. We need to change it so intrinsic motivation is the driving force behind education.

So elective rather than compulsory?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#502

Post by segmondy » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

Teachers have gone on strike for paychecks, I hope they do so because their lives are worth more than paychecks.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#503

Post by analbumcover » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #292

hosh wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my conclusion that the system has failed as well, and it comes from things that are intrinsic to the system itself. Our civilization and systems are set up for failure. When "success" and "wealth" is determined by how much resources you can extract from the land and people, and how much control over access to those resources, it incentivized centralization and control over basic necessities. This would be food,…

This argument really doesn't work for me because you have nothing to compare the system to. > Our civilization and systems are set up for failure. I mean, it's succeeded so far. There have been and will be growing pains, but so far the standard of living has increased over time. To declare failure is just speculation. > fragile global supply chain Fragile compared to what? > Every one of those require money and parti…

> I mean, it's succeeded so far. There have been and will be growing pains, but so far the standard of living has increased over time. To declare failure is just speculation.

Industrialized society has been reducing the long-term carrying capacity of the earth for over a century. These effects, until recently, have been masked by intensification i.e. continually increasing consumption of resources for use as inputs of various processes (e.g. agriculture) that improve the standard of living. In the absence of infinite resources this method eventually reaches hard limits. Also, in a closed system negative externalities can eventually reach levels where they negatively affect carrying capacity.

> Sorry, but this is just the reality of being a living creature. You can go fully off the grid if you want and make all those things for yourself, but most people don't do that, because, spoiler alert, it sucks. It's more work than participating in an economy.

Hunter-gatherer societies have routinely been found to be happier and involve significantly less work than industrialized societies. The accelerating Holocene extinction, ongoing for millennia now, has obviously made this harder. Climate change is making this considerably harder as biomes, generally, shift poleward at rates that negatively impact biodiversity and hence carrying capacity.

> Citation needed.

Not sure what the other poster had in mind here, but the CMIP6 models taking into account cloud dynamics (which also happen to most closely fit historic data) show climate sensitivity of 5-7C, i.e. doubling preindustrial CO2 levels will entail to global average warming of 5-7C. Do you think warning in this range unlikely to occur because you see the necessary immediate societal change as likely? Or do you think that given that degree of climate shift occurs it is unlikely to entail a societal and/or biosphere collapse?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#504

Post by glitcher » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #55

One should note that the safety risks are not one sided, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has pointed out in strongly urging planning centered around means to reopen in-person schooling, there are risks to health and lives at issue with not returning to school: > the AAP strongly advocates that all policy considerations for the coming school year should start with a goal of having students physically present in…

IMO the AAP's guidance on that page is extremely valuable and covers a comprehensive list of well thought out considerations. My biggest concern is that much of it will require significant increases in funding, strong leadership at all levels, and time for careful planning to implement according to those guidelines. Those challenges are not insurmountable, but are we doing enough to meet those goals, or are we rushing into decisions prematurely based on other factors which are clearly against the AAP's guidance?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#505

Post by sfteus » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

collegecamp293 wrote: post #70

3pt14159 wrote: post #3

This is exactly why all the people that said "choosing to protect life is also choosing to protect the economy" were right. It sucks, but people with savings can choose to quit over having to risk their lives. So if there is an appreciable risk (and associated hazard, which, for many of our older educators there is) then that is what is going to happen and you still get the disruptions to the economy.

Why are nurses and grocery workers working then? How are they less at risk than teachers?

Grocery store workers don't spend 8 hours a day in a crowded room with kids who won't keep their PPE on, won't adequately wash their hands, want to give their teachers hugs / high fives, etc. Cashiers get to stand several feet away from those checking out, can put up plexiglass barriers, can slow down the checkout process a bit to sanitize between customers.

Hospitals are designed to prevent infectious disease spread. They plan for mass sanitation, employees wearing PPE, minimizing disease vectors. My wife's hospital has changed their policy to no outside visitors even on non-COVID floors. You can't do that in a school.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to downplay the sacrifice essential employees are making right now; they absolutely deserve hazard pay among so much else for putting themselves at risk for the benefit of everyone else. I asked my wife at the beginning of this if she wanted to quit, and we'd find a way to make it work, and she said "I'm a nurse, I signed up for this." That's just her mindset; she's been trained to work in a contagious environment and her hospital has many ways to help keep her safe. Asking teachers to take on that responsibility in addition to what we already ask of them, while being inside a petri dish of disease spreading is 100% irresponsible to everyone involved.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#506

Post by gilbetron » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

nickysielicki wrote: post #82

leetrout wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong statement: dumb kids are better than dead kids.

There are 74 million children CDC says that 1.7% of COVID cases belong to children. [2] Among children, CDC says 1.8% of cases required hospitalization. [2] >>> 74000000*0.017*0.018 A dumb kid is better than a dead kid, I agree. But are 74M dumber kids worth less than 25000 ICU visits in the entire country? [1]: https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/number-of-children [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm69…

Your math is wrong. First, there are 56M students in the US (5-18 year olds, pretty much). Second, while you quoted the % of cases that belong to children, that is the wrong stat. You want the number of kids that would ever get COVID, which is probably all of them, although there is evidence that 20-50% of people have some sort of resistance. So, for worse case estimates, if all students get covid, then 56M * 0.018 = about 1M kids hospitalized. However, CDC also has evidence that there are 5-10x the number of cases in general out there. So if it is 10x, then it is 100,000 kids hospitalized because the hospitalization rate is commensurately lower. Still not a good number.

If we look at mortality, it is better. The current estimate for IFR in kids is about 1 in 300,000. That gives about 220 estimated deaths if every school age kid gets Covid. Cars kill more kids per year driving to school.

This is all horrendously tough to decide on, but we need to use the best data we can and understand the dangers and comparisons to other dangers.

Finally, kids are going to spread it anyway, so I think kids getting it is really a non-issue, except for the very vulnerable.

Staff/teachers are another concern. An even worse concern is people at kids' homes. That's the really tough part.

You need the Infection Fatality rate for mortality.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#507

Post by morelisp » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

morelisp wrote: post #497

s5300 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear HN users: I plea that you refrain down voting any comment that advises you to take a look at DeVos's Wikipedia page. I HIGHLY advise reading Betsy DeVos's Wikipedia page. With no offense intended (truly) I've got the idea that quite a portion of HN users probably don't know just how much of an absolute shitshow the head of U.S. Education is. DeVos is certifiably insane

I will third this. Please, just look. You'll need to go through decades of multi-level marketing scams, private military contracting, torturous approach to treating autism and other behavioral therapies, and multi-generational Charismatic Christian hate groups before you can even dig into her atrocious educational policies.

Lots of people who believe divorce should be illegal out downvoting tonight!

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#508

Post by gpapilion » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #394

not2b wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this is a consequence of ideologies that have become popular in the US both in politics and in business. Having government direct a mobilization is not acceptable. A mandate that people wear masks is not acceptable. Having manufacturing capacity to make low-value products in large numbers in the US is bad business when poorer countries can do it for less. Having spare inventory is bad, because just-in-time man…

> Having government direct a mobilization is not acceptable. Then you would expect divergent performance in the D-controlled states (eg. California) vs the R-controlled states (eg. Texas), no? So far, I see all types of states having similar outcomes. > ... good leadership ... but we chose someone who is committed to division, ... I'm no fan of our current leader, but let's be honest Obama failed to properly launch a…

I think this is a misrepresentation. Texas has 85% of the infections as California and 74% of the population. California has had steady growth while Texas has been very quick with several days over 10k.

I think the reason the outcome is largely the same is this is a situation where we rely on our federal government to lead the response, and so far they haven’t.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#509

Post by psychometry » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

schoolornot wrote: post #492

twblalock wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, remote education has been a complete disaster. I know a few teachers. Apparently their students found out that the state was unwilling to hold anyone back a year during the pandemic, they shared this information with each other, and now a substantial amount of them are not doing any work. In some classes, more than half the students are permanently absent! Either their parents don't know, or don't car…

Then you cut the school day in half, get rid of homework, and find the best-of-breed educators to deliver unidirectional video content with mandatory pass/fail multiple-choice quizzes. Do less than x% of quizzes and you get held back a grade. Teachers are on the clock for what, 8 hours a day? I don't think it's too much to ask for two or three blocks of "office hours" for miscellaneous Q&A or face-time or "random top…

Online quizzes and video lectures might be fine for college students, but your idea is laughable for younger kids. You really haven't thought this through...

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#510

Post by GeneralMayhem » Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

monkeyfacebag wrote: post #491

rayiner wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re not a “country.” We’re 50 different states with a federal government, which doesn’t have public health as one of its assigned roles. This isn’t an ideological point, it’s a bare recitation of fact. Somehow, other federal republics like Germany managed to engage in an effective pandemic response while leaving most of the work to the states. For example, while Germany eventually had a mask order everywhere, the s…

wait, what is the CDC then? I am not trying to argue with you. I haven't heard the take that the US government doesn't have a public health role and am looking to learn.

You haven't heard it before because it's patently not true. The CDC, the FDA, the NIH, FEMA, not to mention the droves of smaller groups you and I have never heard of that are embedded in other agencies - the federal government has a massive public health role. It's so clear that I have to seriously question the motives of anyone saying that it doesn't.