Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#501

Post by HideousKojima » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

2rsf wrote: post #374

HideousKojima wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about efficacy of government lockdown policies, universal healthcare, etc., then we absolutely should compare. And a cursory glance at the data suggests that government lockdown policies have minimal effect on the spread of the virus, there seems to be little to no correlation between severity of lockdown and cases/deaths

I saw someone else saying that today, do you have a source for that ?

The cases/deaths per million stats by country (and by state in the US) are everywhere. The US is doing decent compared to most of Western Europe, especially Italy and Spain. Though Germany is doing far better than the US. Sweden isn't taking any significant measures to restrict their populace and while they're doing worse than their neighbors like Norway, they're still better than a lot of Europe.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#502

Post by leetcrew » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

apacheCamel wrote: post #491

leetcrew wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, it's not fair, but that's the inherent risk of freedom. people might not do what's best for you, or even themselves. under this model, the government actually has to cultivate a position of trust/legitimacy rather than just compelling people to do (or not do) things. it's easy to forget that most people act with consideration and respect towards each other most of the time, whether or not there is a credible thre…

>it's easy to forget that most people act with consideration and respect towards each other most of the time... I think consideration here is extremely subjective. If what you say is even true, that most people are considerate, what defines considerate here? People think they should leave their shopping carts wherever since that's the job of the cart attendant. Are they considerate because without them, that person m…

of course it's subjective. it depends on local norms (many of are unwritten and/or implicit) which vary a lot from place to place. a lot of it just boils down to treating other people the way (you think) they want to be treated. do you think there are a lot of cart attendants that are grateful for people scattering carts all over the parking lot?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#503

Post by AbrahamParangi » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #217

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lockdowns-are-destroying-America echo chamber and a republicans-are-killing-people echo chamber. These are probably both mostly wrong, but on the plus side things must be getting better because we're back to tribalism.

Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…

I think the real underlying justification for the lockdowns wasn't "we need to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed" so much as "hospitals might be overwhelmed and we need more information to see the tail risk exposure." People weren't distancing before the lockdowns because of fear of hospitals being overwhelmed, they were distancing because they did not personally want to get sick.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#504

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #473

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an undemocratically appointed partisan official nullifies legislature passed by democratically elected officials To my knowledge, there was no such legislation. The order was issued by the executive.

The legislature passed a bill that granted this power to the executive in past decades. Partisan judges felt the need to overturn that bill - despite the legislature retaining the power to override the executive, and to repeal that bill - if they could get 66% of the assembly behind it. This is the opposite of a democratic process. The democratic process has checks and balances for dealing with a rogue executive - bu…

> legislature passed a bill that granted this power to the executive

The legislature granted specific emergency powers to the governor. Based on the decision, I don’t see the scope of those powers being met. (Specifically, the criminal consequences and open-ended timeline.)

And it’s the legislature, today, bringing the case against the executive.

> democratic process has checks and balances for dealing with a rogue executive - but it requires an overwhelming support of the legislature

This is true in no system with the rule of law. The judiciary also checks the executive.

[1] https://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinion/DisplayDocument.pdf?cont...

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#505

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> This state supreme court could have delayed.

If I understand correctly, the winning side asked for a delay (in a different form than you're thinking). They wanted the case decided, ruled on, with the ruling to take effect a week after the decision, so that the governor and the legislature would have time to work something out. That is, they wanted the governor to have to follow the proper procedures to continue the stay-at-home order, and wanted the court to give time for that to happen, because they didn't actually oppose the stay-at-home order, just the way it was done.

The court didn't do that. It revoked the stay-at-home order, starting right now, not a week from now. That's something neither side asked for. That's either the court following its own agenda, or the court being stupid. I'm not sure which.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#506

Post by ikiris » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #436

ikiris wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to not know how covid works (or medicine and/or medical examination) and that's fine, but please don't use your ignorance to sway others on subjects you have no knowledge in.

Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause. See video-proof in [1]. This is due to the highly unusual CDC guidelines on how to classify coronavirus deaths. This is what parent refers to, and is not a knowledge-free comment. [1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...

Exactly what kind of death due to covid do you think shouldn't be classified as a covid death, and what are your medical credentials or evidentiary basis to justify such a stance?

Even the Fox news comment doctor said it's a reasonable stance, because the examples given about kidney and heart problems which are supposed to seem obviously unrelated to general public are clearly not to someone with medical background.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#507

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

nonford150 wrote: post #419

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this broadly expressed as America being focused on (abstract) rights , when most of the rest of the Western world focuses on justice (of outcomes). A pointed example of this is the criminal justice system, where people in the US have the right to stay silent, talk to a lawyer, etc, but still get screwed sideways with profoundly unjust outcomes due to plea bargaining, mandatory minimums, etc.

It's in the nature of the US as such Rights are part of the first governing document (Constitution). The beginning says it all: "We hold these rights to be self-evident". The US was founded on opportunity, not outcomes (we can talk about all the people who were left out of that but it's a discussion for another time).

We hold these truths (not rights) to be self evident." And it's the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#508

Post by noarchy » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #282

dgzl wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. >The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly…

> other countries you speak about have already lost their rights Freedom House has the US at 86, most of Western Europe in the high 90s. https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2020 While I am not going to say the US is an undemocratic hellhole, after all a score of 86 is respectable, saying that countries that score significantly higher "lost their rights" is unlikely to be correct.

How much of their concept of "rights" enters into the "positive vs negative" rights debate? Depending on one's perspective, this could heavily skew things in one direction or the other.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#509

Post by asabjorn » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #436

ikiris wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to not know how covid works (or medicine and/or medical examination) and that's fine, but please don't use your ignorance to sway others on subjects you have no knowledge in.

Dr Birx on the coronavirus task force says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause. See video-proof in [1]. This is due to the highly unusual CDC guidelines on how to classify coronavirus deaths. This is what parent refers to, and is not a knowledge-free comment. [1] https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-...

Can't reply directly to Ikiris: It seems unfair to ask me another question without addressing my reference to Dr Birx statement. She is the one who's credentials this claim rest upon.

Edit: reply to Ikiris child comment. Innuendo is not a valid argument against evidence and does not change what Dr Birx said. You have the video of her saying it, so your claim this is some lone voice saying something is not a valid argument.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#510

Post by monocularvision » Thu, May 14, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #397

cpwright wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden is not all roses in terms of personal liberty either. You must send your children to public schools, at the risk of losing them; even during a pandemic. In the United States, home schooling is an option if you do not want to send your children to public schools. https://www.startribune.com/even-during-the-pandemic-in-swed...

First, no, you don't have to send your child to a public school. There are private schools to choose from. A proper education is a right in Sweden, and unfortunately, so many parents do a poor job at homeschooling that it isn't feasible and puts the person at a lifelong disadvantage. It is a shame that we (Americans) stand for this - the right for a parent to under-educate or mis-educate their children. If one allows…

You may want to look at data around homeschooling results before making such a statement. Most studies show the very opposite of what you describe.