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Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

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Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#501
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The problem with this oft-used dogmatic argument is that it’s pure claim and no evidence. The anti-money position you're espousing is the one that's dogmatic. It ignores what a century of economic scholarship says about how prices work to measure shortages and direct resources to alleviate them. It belies an anti-profit cognitive bias: https://digest.bps.org.uk/2017/08/04/we-have-an-ingrained-an... >>The problem wi…

I appreciate the reply and the links. FWIW, I think trying to paint my views as anti-money and anti-profit is a straw man that is extreme and doesn't effectively respond to what I said. I believe that competition and profit does do what you're saying sometimes . I know there's evidence that it works sometimes . I may be perfectly comfortable saying it works most of the time. But there's also historical evidence that…

Thank you for keeping an open mind and remaining civil.

>>You're glossing over that by ignoring externalized health and environmental concerns, among other things. The market might be stronger if it's left unchecked, but that's not the same thing as slowing down the spread of a disease. Free Market theory simply does not guarantee that we'll have the safest outcome in the shortest time.

Government has a role to play. The market can't do everything, as not every asset can be turned into private property and have a price attached to it. The meta function of enforcing respect for private property rights is also not something markets can provide.

In a pandemic, there are many things a state can do, like fund the development of open-source designs for masks and ventilators, and public domain treatments and vaccines.

It can also fund extensive reviews of the PPE and treatments on the market, to help consumers be better informed.

The government playing this role, while the market acts within the framework created by the public goods generated by the government, optimizes society's response to pandemics.

Price controls worsen society's response to pandemics.

>>Ah yes, you're right and it's true this can happen on the black market under price controls. In your thinking, why is that worse than unrestrained price gouging? What is the meaningful difference in outcome?

Without price controls, there will be larger stockpiles in place, so the market price will not spike as high during a pandemic. More importantly, shortages will not be as severe during pandemics.

Without price controls, business activity to alleviate the shortage is more greatly incentivized as well, leading to the shortage being filled more quickly.

>>Even under ideal conditions, the market takes time to respond to changes in demand. When spikes in supply are price-capped, let's assume not that it'll be price-capped forever and all time, but that either it will be price-capped during a time period that is too short for the market to respond to, or that changes in pricing will be rate limited rather than value limited.

That's a good point, but I think the conditions under which the benefits of free market prices don't outweigh the benefits of price controls to be very limited.

I can't imagine any scenario where price caps that extend for more than three days after a disaster (time enough for high prices to encourage air freight to bring essentials in) will do more good than harm.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#502
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm observing reality and reaching conclusions. But I'm not viewing things as fine grained as you are, but more fuzzy. A hundred bucks are basically nothing, but if I'm a doctor and have to decide whether to work for someone paying me a thousand dollar per hour or for someone paying me a thousand dollar per day, who am I going to choose to work for is obvious. If the difference in money isn't big, than things aren't…

I'm following more now ( I wish we could chat over coffee or something post-covid cos this is interesting stuff ) > Which in turn is similar to someone getting killed and having his wealth outright stolen I don't quite see the similarity but that's because I believe in a general, fuzzy way, all our lives are sacred but grant that individuals make exceptions for personal gain and their perceived "greater good". > If y…

Yes, you're on point. I once thought people's life where worth something because they are people, but I came to dispel this illusion. The illusion stems from our natural in-group preference, giving things that are similar to us a higher value. Animals aren't really like us, but the more similar they are to us, the higher we value them. Just look at the different treatment insects, fish and mammals receive from us. Or the different treatment plants and animals receive. Or stones and plants. The more similar something is to us, the higher we value it. It's an ingrained survival strategy, I assume.

Vegetarians extend this in-group preference to animals, but not to plants. I've once watched an interesting series about how a Vampire secretly turned more and more people of a village into his own kind. Most didn't have a problem hunting humans after the change, but there was one character who chose to starve and die instead of drinking the blood of humans. That left a deep impression on me. So now I'm thinking, if you don't sacrifice your own life for your ideals, are your ideals even worth anything? If you want poor people to receive money, but don't want to transfer all your own wealth to them, aren't you just a hypocrite?

It's true that not everyone chases after money, but it's undeniable that lots of money equals power. If you don't partake in the competition, you can't win. You might succeed in deceiving yourself and others, but you won't wield the power of money. There are other forms of power, of course, like religion or other organizations, for example companies or countries. But even then, if you strive for the top of any of those, you'll naturally amass more money than the people at the bottom of the hierarchy. If you don't want the responsibility that comes with wielding such power, all you can really do is live in peace and hope that the powers that be leave you alone. You don't have any initiative and also no right to complain.

There's this saying that power corrupts, but I don't think that's the truth of it. Power only reveals your true character. Like the character from the story I mentioned, who received the power of being a vampire, but chose to starve himself to death.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#503
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of rights enjoyed by all today in th US - the most important being voting - were originally established specifically at the exclusion of people of color and women. The problem wasn't the rights themselves, it's that they were purposely offered to white men only. Therefore it's deceptive to attack the minimum wage as being any more racist in origin than the right to vote is. Much of the law has deeply racist orig…

What about the person who wants to sell their services at a rate lower than what the government has deemed allowable? Where are their rights in this scenario?

In that case, they can be a self employed independent contractor.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, we might want to start getting some sources in on this. This is the one article I've seen beforehand that discusses how much economists endorse the idea of a minimum wage ($15/hr specifically) and it casts doubt on your very confident tone. I don't really know what to believe, maybe more polls are necessary. https://epionline.org/studies/survey-of-us-economists-on-a-1...

I don't think I was being very confident - there was a reason I said "most?". However I'm fairly certain enough economists agree with the idea of a minimum wage that stating that it's a bad idea as if that's just accepted to be the truth is a little odd.

I sincerely don't know. I have one economist friend and he's iffy on the subject, claiming that minimum wage helps certain low-income groups and hurts other low-income groups. Based on that I don't even think you could categorize him as thinking it's a good or bad idea. That begins to step beyond the realm of economics and into politics or philosophy.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone work to acquire, sell, and as a result create a competitive market for those items if they can't make any money off of it? Preventing sellers from profiting off of 'essentials' and setting prices has created some of the worst food shortages in history.

Ah, I was unaware the world of open source software didn't exist

Nobody provides healthcare, housing, or basic food items as a hobby.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#506
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is that anyone who has a reaction that differs from yours is just a defective human? Persuasive.

No, my argument is that statements like this - "If someone is truly desperate for food, they will find a way to get the money to pay for it." Are both massively ignorant and quite sickening, and that if you aren't reacting at least a little bit to that sort of statement too, you may have a serious lack of empathy. Anyway, good luck in life, I have no interest in carrying on a conversation on this matter any further.…

Your comment is pure emotion. There's no argument or information presentation whatsoever.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#507
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...The first smile will be gentle and gracious, and the second will be of pure glee. What kind of smile is there when there is nothing to buy at any price? Before all these laws, in natural disasters there used to be marginal producers (people with a pickup truck etc) who would load up on some supplies like ice etc. and bring them to the area that was hit to make a quick profit. When the electricity is out and someo…

There are tons of people out there who will handle these things for their communities without expecting an exorbitant amount of money. Your scenario is also completely different from someone trying to buy up the existing supply so that he can gouge people.

>...There are tons of people out there who will handle these things for their communities without expecting an exorbitant amount of money.

The article I linked too was the personal experience of an economist who was in Raleigh after a hurricane hit the area. As he writes:

>...The problem for Raleigh residents was all about price, at that point. The prices of all the necessities that I wanted to use to “preserve, protect, or sustain” my own life shot up to infinity. Within a day after the storm, there were no generators, ice, or chain saws to be had, none. But that means that anyone who brought these commodities into the crippled city, and charged less than infinity, would be doing us a service.

There were not tons of people bringing supplies into the city. The state had to actually beg other states and the federal government for supplies.

In the long run, high profits during a shortage also mean that suppliers in general will be incentivized to keep a larger stockpile of things that have a good shelf-life since they know they will be able to make good money the next time there is a shortage (more than the storage costs). If you are going to literally make it illegal to try this, then you better have a government be willing to spend its tax dollars on creating a stockpile rather than spending money on more immediate things that are more likely to get votes. (We've now seen that all the talk of the national stockpile the federal government supposedly had was greatly exaggerated.)

For these reasons, a majority of economists are opposed to 'price gouging' laws. For example see http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/price-gouging/

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the White House didn’t ‘dissolve’ its pandemic response office. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-...

Your evidence of this is an opinion article by a republican political adviser. Please forgive me if I wait for the congressional investigation to look at it.

No, he isn't a political advisor, he actually on the national security council.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#509
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fail as compared to what? Is there a system that handles disasters so well that no one complains? Or that does much better without sacrificing in other relevant areas?

Market failures are a rich literature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure There is no single system that does better universally, but there are plenty of narrow fixes that do fine. As an example, scarce donor organs are not allocated based on ability to pay, but in other ways: https://optn.transplant.hrsa.gov/learn/about-transplantation...

> Market failures are a rich literature

Sure, I was not saying markets are perfect, I asked what system with no markets is better?

> There is no single system that does better universally, but there are plenty of narrow fixes that do fine.

Agreed.

> As an example, scarce donor organs are not allocated based on ability to pay, but in other ways: https://optn.transplant.hrsa.gov/learn/about-transplantation....

And if you investigate it I'm sure you'll also find plenty of examples of failures in organ allocation.

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